People living on the blue star?

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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Lyriel
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Lyriel » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:03 am

Alunissage wrote:
Silver Phoenix wrote:In one of the games the name was Neil, not Louie. I know for a fact that in either the original games or the remakes one of the Dragonmasters was named Neil. It must have been changed later, because it was obviously a reference to Neil Armstrong landing on the moon.

No. It's always Lui / Louie. You're thinking of the interview with Ryousirow Hasukawa, who mentions that the first Dragonmaster was named Neil, and his arm was very strong. It's on the main site.

I was actually pretty shocked to find that EB really does say Lui rather than Neil. I had always assumed it was WD who had gotten the wrong Armstrong.


It could be a pun. Ever see the episode of Family Guy where Brian falls for the elderly woman he was charged with caring for after his DUI? In his song, "You've Got A Lot To See", he mentions Neil Armstrong, with Meg replying "Neil Armstrong, was he that trumpet guy?" Meg had gotten him confused with Louie Armstrong.
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Alunissage » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:17 am

Oh, I can see it being done deliberately. I was just mistaken as to by whom.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:48 am

Hmm, maybe it was another one of WD's unnecessary add-ins?

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Alunissage » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:27 am

*sigh* No, that's what I'm saying -- whatever the reason, it wasn't WD. Check the screenshots in Kizyr's list of J->E differences. The name [rui] is right there in katakana.
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I see -- I forgot to say in my comment that it was the Japanese EB that surprised me.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:20 am

Well that's just weird, especially considering the interview. Even if it was a pun it just isn't a very effective one when you consider the reference. Maybe they didn't have their facts straight?

Even stranger is how WD followed it through. I hope that reference doesn't show up in SSH, or mega facepalm.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Alunissage » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:05 am

Well, now it's kind of established, since Dragonmaster Louie is mentioned in several of the games. So it'd be kind of strange for it to change now. The interview was done in 1999, well after WD released EB.

Heck, for all we know it could be completely coincidence that Louie Armstrong happens to be a famous name. Although the same person who gave the interview also wrote some of the in-game script. My head hurts.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:32 am

It's a riddle, wrapped inside of a puzzle, tied to an enigma. I'm sorry but I never want to play a game with Dragonmaster Louie. (Sorry Dragonmaster Lou wherever you are.)

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Kizyr » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:30 am

Silver Phoenix wrote:Hmm, maybe it was another one of WD's unnecessary add-ins?

There's a reason I gave all the English and Japanese quotations side-by-side. KF

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Alunissage » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:46 am

Silver Phoenix wrote:It's a riddle, wrapped inside of a puzzle, tied to an enigma. I'm sorry but I never want to play a game with Dragonmaster Louie. (Sorry Dragonmaster Lou wherever you are.)

You wouldn't be just a tad biased toward the idea of a Dragonmaster Neil instead, would you? ;)

Kiz, I was wondering, are the references to Dragonmaster Lui gendered?

It actually just occurred to me that maybe the name was changed in favor of yet another Lu- name.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Kizyr » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:04 am

Alunissage wrote:Kiz, I was wondering, are the references to Dragonmaster Lui gendered?
It actually just occurred to me that maybe the name was changed in favor of yet another Lu- name.

The book uses a specifically male pronoun, so yeah. (Where ambiguous, I usually place the original romanization or some footnote in brackets.)

Anyway, basically, Louie was mentioned in the Japanese EB, Japanese EBC, and English EBC. The English EB changed what that book said (per the quotation I gave earlier). KF

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:27 am

You wouldn't be just a tad biased toward the idea of a Dragonmaster Neil instead, would you? :)


Teehee! Actually when I read the article it did give me a happy tingle, but then I have the different more uncommon spelling. :mrgreen:

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Alunissage » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:33 am

Thanks. I'd had some idea about that, but don't remember what it was.

BTW, I'm not writing Lui to be pretentious; I just have a really hard time taking "Louie" seriously to begin with and once I saw the screenshot I've just automatically corrected it to Lui rather than adding two extraneous vowels to get the same sound. I wonder if his name really would be rendered as Louie now in English if he were to be mentioned in a localized game.

It just now also occurred to me that Lunn is actually kind of an odd name in being so similar to Luna. I don't blame WD for changing Linus, but am vaguely surprised retroactively at the choice of Lunn. Then again, if it took me ten years to notice, it's clearly not that conspicuous.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Jenner » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:05 pm

Alunissage wrote:There's no contradiction in the Beastmen being dominant in the time of Dragon Song.


Argh... Alun, you know better. And of course, Mickey does not have the screenshot of the beastman wandering around Meribia who says as such posted up... This really frustrates me Alun, because you have a doctorates in Lunarology and yet you insist on this when it's simply NOT TRUE.

I know for a fact that there is a beastman shuffling around right outside Mel's Mansion who all but says the reason Meribia is so full of beastmen is because humans are nervous about them and treat them like second class citizens EVERYWHERE ELSE. I swear to -Fatal Hopper- God Alun... when I get this emulator working and make the time to do it I am going to find that goddamn beastman and spam this -Fatal Hopper- topic with the screenshot.

It actually fits in fairly well with the other games,


No it does not!

there's more of an implication of beastmen and humans being separate societies which are integrating before and during Lunar 1.


There may be some foundation in this, considering that most Beastmen can either be found in Meribia or out in the Frontier. Suggesting either segregation or some level of separate societies.

I believe Magic School conveys this separation, although I haven't gone through any form of the story recently. It is hardly an isolated instance of a formerly dominant group losing power, either; the same is true of the Vile Tribe (Magic Race, Mazoku), as told in the Vheen manga and suggested elsewhere. They were dominant; they lost a war to the humans; they were eventually integrated into human society.


Expect NO WHERE IN ANY LUNAR MATERIAL DOES IT STATE THAT BEASTMEN WERE EVER DOMINANT WHERE IT STATES AS SUCH FOR THE VILE TRIBE. If Dalton's library and Vane's library mention the Vile Tribe, which I dimly recall it does, it would also mention the Beastmen, which it DOES NOT.

Also, /rage.

Again, the point with Dragon Song is that it takes place long before Lunar 1, when conventions in the latter were not yet established.


The conventions were established, in earlier games, set before Dragon Song made by people who gave a damn about the established context, listened to the professionals, and who didn't have their heads up their asses.

Humans can't even use magic yet in Dragon Song;


ANOTHER flaw, magic has always been on Lunar and a part of Lunar. Not ALL humans can use magic (as we learn with Ramus) but SOME can and can be born with the Gift. Magic didn't start fading from Lunar until Luna made her choice.

that doesn't mean it contradicts the other games.


-.- *aggravated, agonized wail* KHAAAAAAAAAAAN.

The Dragon Trials are clearly different -- and this may be why Ignatius managed to get past them. The first Dragonmaster helped prepare Lunar for habitation; clearly that's a much different job from what Dyne's was. Reading hearts may not be something that comes naturally to the dragons, either; note how Quark had no clue that Ghaleon was about to zap him.


The Dragonmaster's Duty is as a failsafe, just as the Dragon's duties are as a failsafe.
Althena is the prize, Dragons protect the prize by safeguarding the heirlooms necessary to become Dragommaster and by protecting Althena. The Dragonmaster's duty is to SERVE and PROTECT Althena. All this, probably, in response to Zophar. This is a checks and balances system meant to stop from complete corruption.

That being said, protecting Lunar for habitation was a one-time duty, the Defense of Althena is a Dragonmaster's ultimate purpose and duty.

You may be onto something with Quark, as he did not even recognize Ghaleon. But Ghaleon was not TRYING to become Dragonmaster. And, when you really think about it. Ghaleon beat you to every other Dragon BUT the Black Dragon, why didn't he just TAKE the Dragonmaster Heirloom? Because he needed the Dragon's blessing, and he didn't have it.

... in conclusion, I liked the fact that beastmen openly said they were second class citizens and that humans treated them like -Dragon Diamond- because they come from the frontier (or look like monsters from the frontier-in fact I think there is a beastman in Ruid who says that, that they look like monsters so people are cruel to them) It was very telling, it was good social commentary that there were these innocent people on the other side of the world from you who's only crime was looking different and that Humans are -Albino Baboon-. In every other RPG Humans are always the downtrodden, oppressed, minority rising above the tyrannical Other. It was NICE to see humans being the tyrannical other. You pitied the Beastmen and you became aware of the grey and black morality. The Black Dragon situation just added insult to injury...

DS ruined it, because LORD FORBID HUMANS NOT BE THE ABSOLUTE GOOD GUY AND LORD FORBID WE EVEN SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE WE TREAT POORLY BECAUSE WE'RE BIGOTS ARE ACTUALLY PEOPLE WITH FEELINGS WHO BLEED JUST AS RED AS US.

Seriously, how DARE they. -Fatal Hopper- that.
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby ShindoW » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:40 pm

That lot of information is awesome!

I remember hearing about the Armstrong thing, too. I could have sworn Niel was in the english as well, but apparently not, lol.

I didn't realize there was so much about the Spires from Vane. They seemed just kinda there in SSSC and IIRC they weren't even used/ destroyed in EBC. (I say the Complete vers because I am more familiar with them.) I wish they would've worked that into the plot somewhat, although in one of the quotes I read about one person saving another... it sorta happens with Alex and Luna, so that's a cool paralell.

Now, what are we arguing about the beastfolk? That they were powerful at one point? Wasn't Mel a pirate? Just seems like he wouldn't have to be a pirate if his kind were more well accepted...
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Alunissage » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:58 pm

For heaven's sake, Jenner, can't you reply a bit sooner? I wrote that over a year ago. It's not exactly fresh in my mind.

I stand by my analysis, though. The difference between our conclusions is that you are going from the premise that Dragon Song must be excluded from the canon; I am going from the premise that it must be included to the extent possible. Events that happened so long before Lunar 1 that Vane isn't afloat are not going to have many directly traceable points in common with things in the later game... such as the status of the beastmen. That's why there is, I repeat, no contradiction with their being dominant in the time of Dragon Song. Clearly this changed, probably rather humiliatingly for the beastmen; clearly humans reacted much as they tend to when they see a previously strong group brought down, which is to keep kicking and keeping them there.

ShindoW, Jenner is arguing about about the social structure given in Dragon Song, in which beastment are the dominant race, the race of nobles, and look down on humans. That's why this thread is in the Dragon Song forum. I find your argument about Mel rather suspect... he wouldn't have been a pirate if he hadn't been from a marginalized group?

The beastmen say in TSS that they feel separated from and looked down upon by the humans. Do any of the humans express prejudice against beastmen?

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Lunar Eclipse » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:01 pm

@Jenner: I still don't see why it's impossible for the beastmen to have been in charge at one time. You act like the information had to be in the libraries, but it's not like you read every book there or that they outlined every event that had ever happened prior to The Silver Star. Perhaps the humans discriminate against the beastmen because the beastmen once discriminated against them before they gained power. And perhaps the beastmen discriminate against the humans in Dragon Song's time because the reverse happened yet again during some indeterminate earlier era. There's no knowing who started the cycle that Dragon Song suggests (particularly when you throw the Magic Race into the mix), but it doesn't automatically invalidate any sympathy the player might've had for the beastmen in The Silver Star. Or, at least I didn't feel that way.
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby ShindoW » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:20 pm

I'm just saying my definition of a pirate is much that of "a sea thief". Maybe the beastmen being looked down upon led him to take that path for a number of reasons, such as being discriminated during job hunts and the like-- I dunno, it was a random thought. ;p
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Silver Phoenix » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am

I think Mel was a prior pirate for no other reason than he liked the adventure, and some salty seahags.

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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby ShindoW » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:50 am

Silver Phoenix wrote:I think Mel was a prior pirate for no other reason than he liked the adventure, and some salty seahags.


Most likely :mrgreen:
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Re: People living on the blue star?

Postby Jenner » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:47 pm

Silver Phoenix wrote:I think Mel was a prior pirate for no other reason than he liked the adventure, and some salty seahags.


Row row fight the powa?

Maybe he went to the sea because it was the one place he could go and not be judged. Jessica said something about Mel becoming leader of Meribia through her mother, who Mel kidnapped and who fell in love with Mel which is why she's half-beast.

Pirates were not normally sprung from the pillars of high society and rarely fit in amongst their ilk. (Consider that Blackbeard made an attempt to be a southern gentleman during the English colonization of America... it did not go well for either group and definitely went worst for his poor wife.)
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