In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:46 am

Lunar: Dragon Song is never going to get a remake and never should have existed in the first place. It's a shame because I'm pretty sure all of us wanted the Lunar series revived and we were tired of all the remakes. I am a huge Lunar fan and I did not buy Silver Star Harmony because I was sick of it. A new good Lunar game might have revitalized the series. But, we didn't get a good new Lunar game. We got a terrible awful game that called itself Lunar but defied every and all established lore. I could rant about this for awhile but that is not the point of this thread.

Let's make a good version of Lunar: Dragon Song together!
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Maus » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:21 am

I honestly didn't think it was THAT bad, but I had to quit playing due to the unbelievable tiredness it somehow put my eyes thru. I'll have to finish it (as well as Eternal Blue) soon.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Alunissage » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:07 pm

Maus, just as a warning, there will be inevitable spoilers for DS (obviously) but quite possibly also for EB.

Jenner, I'll get back to this. Right now I'm procrastinating going to work.

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Maus » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:55 am

Don't worry, I'm not the kind of person who gets thrown off by spoilers :)
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby camel pimp » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:06 pm

Fire.

Okay, seriously. Well, looking it from the angle of rom hacking it, what CAN someone do? At the very least, the plot isn't beyond fixing. It direly needs more fleshed out and likable characters, a more active (and fleshed out) villain, lore consistency, and plot consistency in general. A lot of that could be fixed with just re-writing the script that's there, but some of it can't. For one, Iggy just needs more screentime. Not a lot, OG Ghaleon doesn't get a lot of screentime and he does a LOT in his rather limited screentime, but it's still more than Iggy had. Also, how do you fix that whole "and then they just waltz into the Frontier" problem? Probably would require new events. I've only dabbling in rom hacking, so I don't know how easy it is to add events to a DS game, but I assume it's not impossible.

That being said... the core gameplay is beyond salvaging. It's core design is just tedious and unfun. You could probably hack it to be more tolerable, but I can't see anyway of actually fixing it. And no matter how well you change the story, the gameplay is going to drag the whole thing down.

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby jay_are » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:32 am

camel pimp has everything right, fleshing out the story, the characters, etc. is essential.
This is especially necessary because it has similarities with SSS that made it seem like it lacked originality and creativity and just borrowed a bunch of things from SSS. However, the game has its own original ideas in the story that, though they might be a bit unlike Lunar, I think they can be kept because I liked the unique vibes it gave this game.

Ok, let's add common sense to Lunar DS first.
The gameplay, with hacking, it might, MIGHT still be within salvation:
- Make battles last only 10% of the time they actually take.
- No losing HP when running, FOR THE LOVE OF ALTHENA.
- Increase amount of MP, or reduce Magic costs by a lot.
- Equipment breaking is pointless.
- Earn items and EXP at the same time.
- Remove the whole "time running out between enemies" to get special treasure.
- Remove the whole delivery system so that you earn money only by selling items... which would mean they have to sell for higher prices.
This is actually cool because I can't ever believe monsters carry money with them in any game........... Lunar DS just ruined this concept.

I think by this point, the game is already mostly fixed. I'm such a genius!! I should make games- oh wait, I just simply turned it into every reasonable JRPG ever. Now let's get into other things that are beyond hacking:

- Allow exploration of entire town like a normal RPG.
- Exploring an actual world map without point and click would be a dream too.
- Obviously add enemy targetting
- Obviously rebalance characters so you don't have 1 fighter and 2 useless people.
- Graphics should look more like Lunar SSS / EB. Smaller sprites, beautiful battle backgrounds and enemy design (Lunar DS did HORRIBLE here!!!)
It was trying to look like Suikoden, but it felt way unfitting. Go back to traditional Lunar battles and leave Suikoden alone.
- The OST is probably this game's biggest virtue, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Remove songs that sound too much like SSS and make original, awesome music. Also, add music to those dungeons that had no music!

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:21 am

Camel Pimp is a certified Lunar: Dragon Song survivor and she knows her stuff.

Both jay_are and Camel Pimp have some excellent ideas that I'm just gonna -Fatal Hopper- repeat alongside adding my own.

First, like Camel Pimp said this game is Game Design Crime. It needs a complete overhaul. Just utterly recode it because there is nothing worth salvaging here. Let's get into it:
[Basic Stuff]
1) Voice acting and animated cutscene are a defining trait of the Lunar series and you cannot have a Lunar game without them. Add them.
2) Faster in map movement (default player movement is slow) and either add an endurance bar or a time limit to how long the player can run, no HP loss!
3) An explorable Lunar overworld please! And explorable towns. Add some unique and optional areas to be found on the overworld that reward players with minor flavor lore and gear.
4) No equipment breaking!
5) Want to make a chest only available later? Have it locked and require the player to find the key.
6) Get EXP and items from battle and silver only drops from enemies that make sense to have silver. (No having to choose between EXP and silver/items, that's dumb.)
7. Better sprites, better graphics. Lots of animations. Engine generated cutscenes. Do it, do it, do it.
8. I think we need at least two really unnecessary and uncomfortable bath scenes or it's not a Lunar game. (Sorry, I don't like them either but it's the rules!)

9) jay_are wants to remove the delivery stuff but I want to keep it and actually make it a part of the story! We are now Internet Enemies because of our different opinions on video games. (This is a joke.) But yeah, instead of removing them we should make the courier missions actually have a point and worthwhile reward. Have it be a great way to gain loads of silver and EXP and integrate it in with the story. (I'm gonna talk about this later.)

[Combat]
It's gross, fix it.
1) Improve enemy AI. Have enemies focus fire characters. Add synchronization where enemies can use an ability that buffs another enemy's ability. Example: An encounter where one enemy puts a character to sleep and then another enemy attacks that sleeping character with nightmares for a frightening amount of damage.
2) Okay. Magic and techniques need to be very powerful single target attacks, give beneficial debuffs or status effects, hit multiple targets in an aoe, hit all targets, and do decent damage so that they have a -Fatal Hopper- point. Give each character a purpose and unique combat role with their own role-specific attacks, debuffs, and status effects. Next, give the player synchronization too! Now that each character has unique role with their own abilities you can add a layer of tactics and teamwork to the game. Example: Rufus can sunder armor for a defense debuff and then Jian hits for more damage! Certain abilities shut down enemies abilities (silence ruins casters) or are super effective against certain types of enemies (jet fuel can melt steel beams.) AND ALL CHARACTERS (except Rufus) HAVE A WAY TO ATTACK FLYING ENEMIES.
3) Field movement and deployment! You move across the field and attack enemies just like in a real Lunar game! -Fatal Hopper- novel!

Look at how fun I just made this terrible game.

I wanna talk about the story and characters because that needs to be changed too but this post is huge! SEE NEXT POST.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:04 am

Hi I'm Jenner and I write too damn much about -Dragon Diamond- that doesn't matter. This post is the first in a series of posts where I really sperg out about story and characterization. I have a lot to say so I hope you like reading a lot. Buckle in.

Now let's talk about the story and characters. I didn't think the story of Dragon Song was all that bad, just rushed and poorly done. (That's DragonSong.txt btw.) Dragon Song was just full of good ideas done bad. The story just needs to be beefed up and improved because it has a lot of potential. Dragon Song had this kind of racial justice and proving of oneself for equality aspect that I don't want to do away with. In fact, surprise, SJW Jenner wants to double down on that stuff and hard. Because let's be blunt, Lunar's Human vs Beastman dynamic is pretty much the perfect analog to majority group vs minority group and racism. Let's just crank that up past 11 and break off the knob.

But before we can even get to the story and characters we need to change two major things:
1) We must rename Lucia. (Sorry Kizyr!)
Yes, loads of people have the same name but don't do this. It's dumb. I recommend we rename Lucia Elin because it both means light and is a reference to another Working Designs game (Vay.)
2) We need to respect the established lore and world building.
Beastmen have always been the shat upon underdogs. There is no point in known history where they were ever on top and oppressing humans. Humans have always been on top and oppressing Beastmen. Since Beastmen have never been on top we need to do one of two things:
- The Jenner Method: Race swap pretty much everybody. The Beastman empire is now a Human Empire. King Xephos, or whatever his name is, is now a human and Jian is now a Beastman.
- The Alunissage Method: Establish this place as a Beastman break away state where Beastmen got fed up with human jackholery and made their own gross oppressive dictatorship. (We'll show you how it's done, jerks!)
If there are other methods you can think of please voice them in this thread. But with that done we can move on to making a good Lunar game. Like so:
[Story and Characters]
Obviously I prefer the Jenner Method so I'm only going to be focusing on that. Alun can write her own story and character change ideas for her equally good and equally valid method.
1) Jian: Jian is now a Beastman. He is facing heaps of oppression and prejudice in the Human Empire and Lucia Elin is one few humans who treat him with any kind of decency. But because she's a Human and he's a Beastman their childhood friendship and budding romance is forbidden and probably illegal. So they meet in secret. Through Jian we, the player, are going to face/experience housing discrimination and inequality, job limitations, poor education, systematic institutionalized racism, and more. It's gonna be fun. And he is really gonna believe he's garbage and be deeply concerned with Elin's reputation. (This is called internalized racism and it's very good characterization.) He has a justified animosity, resentment and huge chip on his shoulder about humanity because of that aforementioned very real prejudice and oppression he faces on a day to day basis. With Elin’s encouragement and support, he starts listening to the Beastmen activists who have begun organizing and protesting for Civil Rights. They convince him that Humans and Beastmen are equals and he starts trying to prove that. Jian can basically do everything he did in the original Dragon Song but now as someone who is not a smug, arrogant, racist because that guy sucked. And, while I can't take credit for this idea (some person on Something Awful thought of it), since Jian has this capoeria fighting style, he should invent Blue Dragon Karate.

2) Lucia: Wow Lucia was awful. She and original Jian deserved each other. Nobody likes the bossy brat girlfriend. I personally like the BFF who's always got your back and who you have mutual attraction with. So that's Elin now. Born into a wealthy merchant family and well educated Elin is a deeply religious person who really embraced Althena’s message of love and acceptance. (Think of those rare Christians that actually try to emulate Jesus, that's her.) She thinks Humans and Beastmen are equal and she's very critical of her own kind. She doesn't care about her reputation or about what people think about her and really wishes Jian would stop being so difficult and just date her because she knows he likes her and she likes him. Anyway, she uses her connections to help Jian get a decent job (making deliveries for Gads) and she goes to the Beastman Lives Matter talks with Jian and asks the community how she can help. When they say they need education and opportunities she starts personally teaching them how to read and showing them how to use the library. (She also starts pressuring her father to push for Beastmen entry into Human schools. And to hire Beastmen employees.) She travels with Jian on his courier missions and fights monsters/enemies with him and she's competent in combat and doesn't use umbrellas as weapons anymore. She hits things with flails and has priest magic because of her faith in Althena. (She's like Jessica.)

Look at that! A pair of good characters! That took me approximately fifty minutes GameArts (or whoever made Dragon Song I'm too lazy to look) what's your excuse?

Let's fix the rest of the characters while we're at it.

3) Rufus: (We might want to change his name to something that can be shortened to four characters.) Rufus doesn't have any real dimension or any point whatsoever in Dragon Song. We're keeping him a full Beastman and he should be one of the first characters Jian meets. Let's say Jian and Elin get attacked by some human thugs while delivering something for Gads and Rufus charges in with his huge -Fatal Hopper- off sword to beat some asses. He then journeys with Jian for awhile and is not particularly fond of Elin because he's a hateful extremist revolutionary (who is doing all kinds of terrorisms.) He condemns Humans and talks about how nobody willingly gives up power without a sword to their throat. Jian tells Rufus they can make change from within the system and Rufus tells him that the system is inherently oppressive and racist and rotten to the core and that they should just burn everything down. Jian and Elin spend a lot of time trying to get through to Rufus and help him channel his rage into something productive.

Now we get to the big changes (she says as she has just hugely rewrote everything.) See, I want diversity. I want gay characters in my games. And since this is my fictional Lunar game (and my understanding of what is canon) I'm adding gay characters. Since Rufus had this really garbage and not developed at all implied romance with Gabby, that's where the gay is gonna come from now.

4) Gabrielle: Gabrielle is now Gabriel and he's half-Beastman. He knows that Humans and Beastmen can love each other because he is living proof. He's an ardent defender of humans because he loves his human parent. But he hides his biracial status and he since he looks like a Beastman almost every human treats him like crap. (Which makes him question himself.) When he joins up with Jian it is very much because he wants equality for Beastmen and he's delighted to meet Elin (they become fast friends.) But he, Elin, and Jian are constantly having to have intense arguments with Rufus about humans. Rufus calling Gabe and Jian a bunch of Uncle Toms and just generally being toxic as -Fatal Hopper- is just not helpful. Gabe can see that Rufus' heart is in the right place but that he is so blinded and consumed by hatred that he is doing more harm for his cause than good. He likes Rufus, and he appeals to Rufus' caring and humanity and really starts to tone Rufus down. He helps Rufus understand that Jian, Elin, and him are all on the same side and that they all want the same thing. (Equality.) And he sees that Elin and Jian totally have the hots for each other and mad ships it. He tells them that Beastmen and Humans can be together and love one another and reveals his biracial status to prove it. (Which deeply affects Rufus.) With Gabe as living proof, Jian and Elin finally admit they love each other and that they want to be together and try to make it work. Rufus can no longer deny that Humans and Beastmen can love each other in the face of this and he's moved.

All this happens just in time for Dragonmaster Ignatius to show up and rescue Elin from the terrible Beastmen who have kidnapped her and have been holding her hostage. (In other words he kidnaps her because he thinks he's the good guy.)

But this post is long and I'll talk about Ignatius and Flora in my next post.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:43 am

Let's talk about Ignatius, Flora, and what I think is really canon. We're beyond fanfic territory now.

5) Ignatius: Remember when I wryly posted on these very forums forever ago that there was nothing that said the Dragonmaster had to be the/a good guy? Well I got what I wanted and it was terrible! I'm sorry, it was all my fault for even mentioning it YEARS before Dragon Song was even an idea. But it wasn't Iggy being the villain that sucked it was that Iggy sucked that...uh... sucked. So, keep the evil Dragonmaster but make them not garbage.
How?
- How about giving Iggy an actual consistent goal! What did Iggy even want? Does anyone even remember? (I sure as hell don't!) What were his goals and purposes for being evil? To me it seemed like he was just being evil for laughs and to paraphrase Kizyr, "Rare is the person who is evil and knows they are being evil. The best villains think they're doing what's right and that they're justified in their outrageous actions. Crazy dude blowing up the world because muahaha so evil and also so goddamn crazy is not a compelling villain." (Then he goes on to talk about how people who worship the evil Gods in D&D (Gods that identify as evil and everyone knows are evil) make no sense. Then I tell him that Vecna is actually the good guy with a straight face. OUR RELATIONSHIP IS HEALTHY.)

Anyway, we have this Race War embroiling now and Ignatius is like, "Oh dear, that won't do. Somebody has got to do something about this." So he becomes the Dragonmaster and uses his new authority to start being that white guy on the internet who tells Black Lives Matter activists that it's actually black people who are the source of their problems and that if they would just do something about their brutish thug culture and glorification of the gangster lifestyle they would solve everything. (Yeah, thanks for the advice buddy!) He sides with the Humans and starts criticizing revolts and protests:
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He thinks the Beastmen and their movement is a real threat to Lunar. He learns that Althena is currently touring Lunar in a human incarnation and starts looking for her to see if she'll weigh in. Ultimately finding Althena hanging out with being held hostage by Beastmen. So he kidnaps rescues her!

Now we talk about story.

Elin spends the next several hours of gameplay telling Ignatius that Beastmen are people while he runs around mansplaining and making a mess of everything. And when Humans start marching with Beastmen Iggy gets really confused and upset. With Jian acting as their Katniss Everdean (having been victorious in the arena and still -Dragon Diamond- on by the king) the Beastman and Human coalition overthrows the Human Empire and usurps the king while Jian is out hunting for the Dragons so he can become the Dragonmaster and save his girlfriend. Ignatius rolls up with an army of racists to put an end to this -Dragon Diamond-. But even with "Althena" herself backing him up the Equality Movement isn't really sold on giving up Identity Politics. So the army of racists defeats the Equality Movement and enslaves all of them. Then Iggy starts moving to enslave every Beastman under his new empire.

All that stuff is really important and it's a shame we're following Jian as he goes to where Vane is being made and talks to an Ausa. They tell him that, while Iggy might have the Dragonmaster's equipment and be acting as Dragonmaster, that stuff is largely ceremonial and the real Dragonmaster is the person with the Dragon's support and blessing. They tell him where the Red and White Dragons are. And you know what, I just realized Dragon Song doesn't really have a mage character and maybe we should do something about that. You're a wizard, Gabriel.

Anyway, Iggy starts sending agents to stop Jian and the team so they wade through just a deluge of combat and obstacles as Jian seeks out the Red and White Dragons, explains things, and gets their blessing. They send him off to the Frontier to talk to the Black Dragon and caution him to be careful. Moving as refugees in a world now torn apart by civil war Jian and the team barely make it into the Frontier alive. And throughout this whole journey, from Vane to the Frontier, Rufus and Gabe have been warming up to each other, flirting, falling in love, and start dating. Nobody comments on this with anything but approval because it's no big deal. Anyway, they happen to stumble across Flora and now we have to talk about Flora.

6) Flora: I can't take credit for this idea either, another person on Something Awful pointed it out and I'm taking the ball and running with it. Ignatius is wrong about who Althena is. Elin isn't Althena, Flora is. And Flora knows she's Althena (unlike Luna.) Flora is out on the Frontier helping people and soothing the Black Dragon because TSS is canon and SSSC is dumb as -Fatal Hopper-. See, Althena got real pissed at Humanity a long time ago and she drove all the people she was mad at into the Frontier and then turned her light away from them in a huff. But, there were innocent people already present on the Frontier and, generations later, the bulk of the Original Sinners are dead and gone and everyone who's left suffering out in the Frontier largely doesn't deserve it. So Flora wants to fix that. Problem is, she can't. She tried just high beaming her light over there but it didn't take. So she's trying to figure out what's blocking her so she can return her light to the Frontier before the Black Dragon goes insane. Well, she and the Black Dragon figure it out and guess what, it's people. Because, funnily enough, when you lash out in emotional retaliation and -Fatal Hopper- over a bunch of innocent people and then exile everyone you're mad at to the hell you created they don't like or believe in you anymore! Their lack of belief in Althena and rejection of her is keeping her from turning her light back on them. NICE GOING ALTHENA, I HOPE WE ALL LEARNED SOMETHING FROM THIS. So she needs to evangelize and return faith and belief to the people while doing what good she can in the meantime with the Black Dragon's help. (By the way, resident Lunar Expert Kizyr says that the full extent of her power just doesn't reach the Frontier for Reasons but this is my canon now, -Borgan-!)

Flora stumbles across the crew in bad shape trying to find the Black Dragon and become the Dragonmaster so that Jian can rescue his girlfriend and stop Ignatius! She decides to help because goddamn that dude is a -Dragon Diamond- Dragonmaster. She leads the team to the Black Dragon and she (the Black Dragon is female, I just made that canon too) gives you her blessing and tells you she's losing her goddamn mind out here because of the limited reach of Althena so help. Rufus asks her why she doesn't just -Fatal Hopper- leave and the Black Dragon tells him that without her helping the earth be fertile and easing the people's grief they would all be killing themselves and dying and she just can't sacrifice them for her own sake. She has a duty to the people of Lunar. Rufus understands and both apologizes and praises her. Flora promises to come back soon and help.

So that's Flora. Why does the Black Dragon still go insane in TSS if Flora fixes things in this game? Because she doesn't. See, once Jian goes to the Blue Dragon and gets his blessing (also, nice martial arts you've got there Jian. I'm gonna keep that in mind because that should be a thing.) He heads back to stop Ignatius (who is now in full #makelunargreatagain overload) and finds a dystopian racist empire waiting for him. He rallies a massive Beastman and Human army under his banner and beseiges the empire. They somehow manage to win (maybe by using technology so Jian can be the dude who started that tech revolt that is mentioned in the timeline, I don't care.) And the team confronts Ignatius who is all, "Guh, you guys, c'mon! If you would just get back under the yolk where you belong I'll make sure humanity takes care of you and gives you a good life."
And Gabe says, "Slavery is not a good life. It doesn't matter how kindly you treat us or how "good" you make our lives. It will never be a quality existence until we are free and equal."
Rufus helpfully adds, "Iggy your -Fatal Hopper- racist ass empire is burning to the ground as we speak and you've already lost. You should really just give up."
Iggy gestures wildly towards Elin and exclaims, "Hello?! Goddess! I win!"
To which Flora replies, "Actually no and please stop. That chick ain't Althena, I am, and I gave ya'll free will with the hopes that you would find the right path for yourselves but my intent was always for you guys to do it together as equals. So, I mean, you're free to do what you want but it's pretty damn obvious the Beastmen want their freedom and equality. Your stupid antics tore this beautiful world apart in civil war and if you had just -Fatal Hopper- accepted the Beastmen's peaceful request for civil rights this whole mess could have been avoided. Humanity has everything to gain and nothing to lose from the inclusion of Beastmen."
Iggy gapes while Elin frees herself with Jian’s help.
Rufus shouts, "Listen to her, Ignatius! The Goddess herself wanted Beastmen to be equals! Stop this madness!"
Ignatius rages and tweets #notmypresident then kills Flora rather than admit he's wrong. (Video games are art.)

So that's why the Black Dragon goes insane in TSS. Because Iggy murders Flora before she can complete her mission. And every other mortal incarnation of Althena afterwards (until Luna) suffers the same kind of memory loss and lack of awareness of what they need to be doing that Luna does so they never get around to it. Or something. Look, Kei Shigima didn't have to explain it so I don't either!

But I digress, Jian, Elin and Gabe rush to Flora. Gabe and Jian are in tears because they really liked her. Elin is just gaping in horror. Rufus, of course, gets angry.
"What the -Dragon Diamond-?! Aren't you sworn to protect her?! Isn't that like your job?! You just killed the Goddess, you crazy -Fatal Hopper-!" He yells
"Yes, and I'll kill her again! My children, and my children's children and all my progeny for forevermore will hunt Althena down in every mortal incarnation and kill her on sight! I will never permit some filthy animals to live alongside us as people!" Replies Ignatius.
Rufus rages and attacks him and deals a grevious injury but Iggy strikes back and while Rufus tries to evade his magical blast he is horribly injured. Jian slowly rises from Flora's corpse with a grim expression as Gabe and Elin hurry to Rufus' side. And while Elin mends him Gabe angrily declares that if he kills Iggy now he won't have any children and this madness will stop. This initiates a boss fight where the beleaguered Rufus fights along with you. At the end of the battle Gabe is ready to kill Iggy but Rufus stops him and tells him to not become the monster Iggy thinks he is. Mother -Fatal Hopper- character development holy -Dragon Diamond-.

So the game ends with Ignatius telling Jian to just -Fatal Hopper- kill him already to which Jian is like, "Nope." Cries of celebration ringing out as Beastmen and Humans enter the boss room and announce the surrender of Ignatius' army. Elin tells Ignatius that he will be tried and punished for his crimes but that there would be a place for him in Lunar's new future should he want it. She takes Jian’s hand in hers as she speaks. Ignatius looks at the victorious Beastmen and Humans, looks at the interracial couple before him, looks disgusted, and leaps to his death. In the wake of the civil war, the old king's daughter and heir declares full Beastman rights now and Humans and Beastmen set upon repairing and rebuilding after the damage, together. Jian and Elin strip the Dragonmaster's equipment (miraculously undamaged from the fall) from Iggy's corpse and, with Gabe and Rufus in tow, take Flora's body back to the Frontier and show it to the Black Dragon with their sincere apologies. Rufus begs the Black Dragon to leave the Frontier and save herself but she refuses. She tells Rufus that the Frontier needs her and that the only way to save her is to bring belief in Althena back to the Frontier. Rufus swears he will do his best and he and Gabe make what ultimately becomes the village of Marke. ("Marke was founded by Beastmen." an NPC in the town says in TSS. Check out that -Fatal Hopper- lore loyalty. *Gives herself a high five*) Jian and Elin return to the green side of Lunar and act as good will ambassadors to the regions of Lunar that have not yet embraced the idea of Beastman rights. They adopt some war orphans but never have any children of their own.

And that's the end. Wow, that was huge and SJW as hell. Thanks for reading my LONG ASS FANFIC. This series of posts took me about 2 and 1/4 days to really iron out. It took whoever actually made this game months to make the garbage that was Dragon Song and we both got it from the same place, our asses.

So um, game theory! Like, comment, and subscribe! Support me on Patreon! I don't -Fatal Hopper- know. Look at all that! It's really good and it will never matter! I wasted my life. I should be ashamed of myself. I'm going to bed now.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby jay_are » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:50 am

:mrgreen: Oh snap! A lot has been added. I agree on the voice acting too. It should just be in there.
On a related note, I'm not sure if it was mentioned already (will finish reading everything tomorrow)
but I ABSOLUTELY need there to be music that is sung, like you know, the Opening and Endings of anime, the JPOP-ish styles.
From the opening of LTSS to the 2 ending themes of Lunar EB, to the opening and boat themes of Lunar SSSC... there needs to be a few like these very emotional songs.

Just BTW, I sometimes consider Lunar SSSC to be partly the true third game the Lunar fans have always wanted, if only because its soundtracks are so different.

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:09 pm

I originally posted some concerns about how huge my effort posts were but jay_are said to keep it.

...so I doubled down and made it even bigger.

This is not jay_are's fault. But a very important lesson should be learned from this about not encouraging me.
Last edited by Jenner on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby jay_are » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:56 pm

Yes leave it all there.

Jenner wrote:8. I think we need at least two really unnecessary and uncomfortable bath scenes or it's not a Lunar game. (Sorry, I don't like them either but it's the rules!)

This is true, this has to be there too but whoever makes it better be careful, I like the jokes and reasons behind these scenes in Lunar 1 and 2, especially Lunar 2, but in other RPGs and anime, commonly it feels too purely like fanservice than a legit thing.

Jenner wrote:9) jay_are wants to remove the delivery stuff but I want to keep it and actually make it a part of the story! We are now Internet Enemies because of our different opinions on video games. (This is a joke.) But yeah, instead of removing them we should make the courier missions actually have a point and worthwhile reward. Have it be a great way to gain loads of silver and EXP and integrate it in with the story. (I'm gonna talk about this later.)


LOL nah, this is fine too. I just held back in shyness because I forgot it CAN be turned into a great thing.

Jenner wrote:super effective against certain types of enemies (jet fuel can melt steel beams.)

Yup. We want to strategize and experiment!! Actually, Lunar 2 (at least USA that I know of) had this and let you know what was effective or wasnt.
However, I can improve upon Lunar 2 here. Targetting an enemy won't give you a hint if the attack you selected is effective or not UNLESS you already discovered it. So if I already attacked this enemy with this spell, it can look green, but if I haven't, it will look neutral.

Jenner wrote:Dragon Song was just full of good ideas done bad.

Just emphasizing the truth :D whoever fixes the game has to understand this fact first.

Jenner wrote:In fact, surprise, SJW Jenner wants to double down on that stuff and hard. Because let's be blunt, Lunar's Human vs Beastman dynamic is pretty much the perfect analog to majority group vs minority group and racism. Let's just crank that up past 11 and break off the knob.

Yeah! This can be a great theme to cause deep emotions, sadness and betrayals, which is one of the things Lunar is about.

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Alunissage » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:57 am

I don't think I can reply to everything here right now. (Have been sick, and now also have sick kitty I'm very worried about.) So I'll just throw in a few notes.

1) I personally don't consider voice acting and animation Lunar necessities. I loved Legend's sprite scenes, and it was a relief not to hear voices. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but...just saying.

2) Yes, keep the delivery service and turn it into something actually interesting. I've long thought that was a missed opportunity. The job descriptions suggest things that could be useful:
Find and deliver ingredients for a secret cold cure
Find and deliver ingredients for mushroom soup
Find and deliver materials that could be used in makeup
Find and deliver materials to make gadgets used at a carnival
Find and deliver materials that could aid in the study of the vile tribe
Find and deliver something used to make a machine
Find and deliver some beautiful clothing
Find and deliver things required for a festival on a ship
Find and deliver materials to create a commemorative work of art

Don't a lot of these sound like things that could be usable items or equipment? Or a bromide, I guess, for the last one. (I have 200 of these transcribed, that's just a sample.) I know the items dropped by the monsters are ridiculous, but no more so than that they carry money -- and less so, in the case of honey, bones, etc. And really, some of these titles combined with the sundries needed for them are rather funny.

3) I think the dual battle modes and chests opening because of them are salvageable, and it'd be nice to keep something that is actually different about the game.

4) It's not so much that I think the beastmen broke away with their own enclave as that they'd come to be the dominant class and when the humans finally threw this off they did what humans sometimes do and retaliated. I was going to write more about this but I'm being distracted.

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 am

Sorry for misrepresenting your method Alun!

I fixed my huge ass posts and now my life's work is compete! I can now die in peace! (This is not true, I have at least 4 books to write.)

PS, I adore the profanity filter, it is very fun, but it keeps messing up my posts. >:|

jay_are wrote:Yes leave it all there.


*gazes up at her pair of huge sprawling effort posts* Look at what you did. (I'm kidding, it's all my fault.)

jay_are wrote:
Jenner wrote:8. I think we need at least two really unnecessary and uncomfortable bath scenes or it's not a Lunar game. (Sorry, I don't like them either but it's the rules!)

This is true, this has to be there too but whoever makes it better be careful, I like the jokes and reasons behind these scenes in Lunar 1 and 2, especially Lunar 2, but in other RPGs and anime, commonly it feels too purely like fanservice than a legit thing.


Exactly. TSS and SSSC's bath scenes were mostly tame and fun and EB and EBC's were actually character development. So this fictional Dragon Song we're building is going to have to be really considerate if they add this kind of thing. I was kind of being cheeky about their necessity, I could honestly go either way on it. I'll have to think about this more. Like, if we're gonna add bath scenes... what should they be?

jay_are wrote:
Jenner wrote:9) jay_are wants to remove the delivery stuff but I want to keep it and actually make it a part of the story! We are now Internet Enemies because of our different opinions on video games. (This is a joke.) But yeah, instead of removing them we should make the courier missions actually have a point and worthwhile reward. Have it be a great way to gain loads of silver and EXP and integrate it in with the story. (I'm gonna talk about this later.)


LOL nah, this is fine too. I just held back in shyness because I forgot it CAN be turned into a great thing.


Nope, it's too late now. We have to fight to the death. (I'm kidding.)

I like the idea of Jian accidentally supplying some smugglers with some weapons and then setting up a sting for the smugglers and then realizing the smugglers were actually the good guys and having to rescue the smugglers. Just a small story within a story that is unlocked through Gads quests (which we now make highly rewarding.)

I also like Alunissage's stuff because the idea of like bringing cures, ingredients, supplies, etc is very Good Deed and fun. And it unlocking rewards and bromides and such would be really great.

jay_are wrote:
Jenner wrote:super effective against certain types of enemies (jet fuel can melt steel beams.)

Yup. We want to strategize and experiment!! Actually, Lunar 2 (at least USA that I know of) had this and let you know what was effective or wasnt.
However, I can improve upon Lunar 2 here. Targetting an enemy won't give you a hint if the attack you selected is effective or not UNLESS you already discovered it. So if I already attacked this enemy with this spell, it can look green, but if I haven't, it will look neutral.


I like this! And while I forgot to mention it it's obvious that in my system revamp you're gonna be able to target enemies and that everyone (except maybe Rufus) is gonna have a way to attack flying enemies.

What about adding in party banter during combat as well? So Elin and Jian can Legolas and Gimli each other and Rufus can complain about enemies needing nerfed. (Extra characterization!) They can shout out suggestions like, "Elin, try blinding it!" And such to give the player clues (though sometimes they'll be wrong.) And they'll remember what worked in previous encounters and reference it just to remind the player:
"Fatal Hoppers? They're weak to electricity!" Etc.

Alunissage wrote:3) I think the dual battle modes and chests opening because of them are salvageable, and it'd be nice to keep something that is actually different about the game.


:catstare: (Oh yeah... this forum doesn't have those emotes.) Boo! Get out!

I'm teasing. I think you're right. The challenge chests were a very unique element and as long as we make them fun or challenging they would work. We could also use the challenge chests to teach players new combos they might not have thought of or give them a real Dark Soulsesque git gud challenge like: "Fight off this encounter of shambling mounds and shocker lizards using only melee attacks!" (This is a very evil suggestion and if you don't understand how evil this is its okay.)
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby jay_are » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:16 am

Oh wow, this thread didn't get any more replies?
We tackled it pretty hard I guess. Good job :D
If at least everything written on this thread was considered in a remake, it would already be solid.
(That's in a mythical world where game companies don't release broken videogames)

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Maus » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:31 pm

I have gotten to a point where it is just annoying to play... but at the same time, I had already put way too many hours on it to just leave. I'm pretty sure this is how addictions start.

The badly-written fanfic thing that I mentioned awhile ago is what gets me; talking to people -even my own party- is not fun nor informative (and I don't think they could overreact anymore). And while I adore the music and like the graphics, those things can only carry you so far. This is just fundamentally broken... and it shows.

PS: Dragon Song is the first original game in ages, right? Shouldn't it be known as Lunar 3, then? (Yes, you can all smack me really hard for saying that, I take responsibility for my own actions).

@Alunissage: Hope you are feeling better now!
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby GhaleonOne » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:54 pm

The biggest disappointment i had with Dragon Song was how much they ignored a lot of the history they had already created with previous games (both Sega CD and Playstation/Saturn versions). The biggest problem being that Vane should have been at least in it's early stages. TSS (maybe SSS too?) mentioned Vane rose to the sky 1000 years prior, so it should have been around the same time as Dragon Song. Fitting that into the story would have been really nice.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Jenner » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:41 am

GhaleonOne wrote:The biggest disappointment i had with Dragon Song was how much they ignored a lot of the history they had already created with previous games (both Sega CD and Playstation/Saturn versions). The biggest problem being that Vane should have been at least in it's early stages. TSS (maybe SSS too?) mentioned Vane rose to the sky 1000 years prior, so it should have been around the same time as Dragon Song. Fitting that into the story would have been really nice.


From what I've read in the documents Kizyr has here that you guys received while you were doing your consulting it looks like that was kind of more strongly hinted at and then dropped entirely? Is that correct? Hindsight is 20/20 but ya'll should have let me in on those consultations back when I volunteered so I could have burned bridges and horribly offended people contributed absolutely nothing of value.
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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby Kizyr » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:20 am

Jenner wrote:
GhaleonOne wrote:The biggest disappointment i had with Dragon Song was how much they ignored a lot of the history they had already created with previous games (both Sega CD and Playstation/Saturn versions). The biggest problem being that Vane should have been at least in it's early stages. TSS (maybe SSS too?) mentioned Vane rose to the sky 1000 years prior, so it should have been around the same time as Dragon Song. Fitting that into the story would have been really nice.

From what I've read in the documents Kizyr has here that you guys received while you were doing your consulting it looks like that was kind of more strongly hinted at and then dropped entirely? Is that correct? Hindsight is 20/20 but ya'll should have let me in on those consultations back when I volunteered so I could have burned bridges and horribly offended people contributed absolutely nothing of value.

There were some hints that they had a place to try and fit in the Ausas and Vane, but it was in one design doc and not even the storyboards. I'm afraid my best guess is it was theorized and left open at one point, but never even fleshed out past the initial stages. (Again, the Magic Lab is in the exact location Vane would be, and fits the bill for what a magic school could've been.)

...but keep in mind it's not like we were programmers or storywriters on the game. It's not as if we could've said "yeah, scrap this entire thing and start over" or taken it in a radically different direction. KF

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Re: In this thread we fix Lunar: Dragon Song.

Postby GhaleonOne » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:53 pm

We also didn't get paid like we were supposed to! *grumble grumble*

I think it would make a cool feature to release those documents, but I would assume that's against whatever was in the NDA. (I'm not even sure I have a copy of any of it anymore though, as I lost a lot of my Lunar documents to a dead PC years ago)
-G1


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