Serious plot issues with DS now that I've completed it

[segaboy7]

the talk of someone falling off a cliff in EB/EBC, could have been dircted to Hiro falling from his rope getting the dragon eye, it looked to be quite a hefty drop and he didn't have a scratch on him.

[DevNall]

This reminds me of The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clichés.

[Tigalys]

the talk of someone falling off a cliff in EB/EBC, could have been dircted to Hiro falling from his rope getting the dragon eye, it looked to be quite a hefty drop and he didn't have a scratch on him.

I thought he was talking about Jean when she escaped from the Black Fist place as a kid.

[Nobiyuki77]

I was reffering to Jean, but hey, Hiro works too.

[DaWrestla]

After re-beating the game last night, two more observations:

[spoiler]

1) When facing Ignatius at the end of the game, Jian clearly tells him to "draw [his] sword". To me, this is a clear indication that Ignatius has all the dragon armor and althena's sword...like a normal dragonmaster. Sure, I don't remember anywhere in the game where Jian might have been told about this, but I do know developers will give clue to the players in what seems like plotholes in the game world. This is one of them, to me. So, if Ignatius and Jian were to have fought, and Jian was starting to kick his butt (which he would have), then Ignatius would have donned (sp) the armor and sword. To me, this seems settled.

2) I do, however, have a problem with Althena telling Jian that fighting will accomplish nothing. What a bunch of crap. I don't know, I guess it might fit in to the whole "humanity" gig, but Alex definately fought Ghaleon and it accomplished something.

3) I actually *do* think Althena knew who Jian was. I make that decision based on her running over to take a "bullet" for him at the end. Thanks to Alun, I've come to view this as Althena not actually being completely Althena (though I think Ignatius hints otherwise...but what does he know?). I think this is so because she still has pink hair and is not wearing the traditional Althena garb we see in pre-DS, (SSSC?), and EBC movies. My theory is that when she vanishes, she becomes completely Althena, with blue hair and proper attire, before deciding to come back as Lucia to be with Jian.

4) I know Vane and the Magic Empire are around 1,000 years before Lunar 1. But seriously, this isn't a problem for DS being 1,000 years before Lunar 1. Let's look at it:

Let's say that DS takes place maybe 1,010 years before Lunar 1. It's still safe to say that it takes place...by rounding...1,000 years before. Well, I don't remember what in game material is in SSSC, but the *map* of SSSC makes it look like flooding has taken place. Let's go with that.

So, as I read a sound theory on another post (which I'm really starting to buy into), let's assume that Ignatius comes back after forming the Magic Empire (around, say, 988 years before Lunar 1) and somehow Jian dies in the adventure. This causes Lucia to wake up as (the blue-haired, *complete*, Althena) and cry, causing the flooding. Let's say this adventure takes place over a year or two. We're still looking at the events taking place long enough before Lunar 1 that they can be said to have taken place 1,000 years before. I think this works. Personally, I've always viewed the 1,000 years before/after thing as a rough estimate to really mean anytime between 1,050 to 950 years before/after. Allowing for this discrepancy gives you plenty of time to create the Magic Empire and have Vane rise. Assuming the dragons died/left during the DS story, then it might be safe to say that new dragons were back before this post-DS fiasco took place...which would lead to magic being powerful enough to raise Vane.

I'm really starting to think that DS ties in better to Lunar 1 & 2 than we all originally thought.

[/spoiler]

Also, I've been hearing a lot about plot-holes in SSSC. I'm gonna restart it tonight (and EBC after I finish it) to get the whole Lunar story in me at one time. I'll keep a look out for these plot-holes (especially the whole multiple rebirths thingy).

[MiaOne]

[spoiler] Well, in TSS/SSSC "Dark Althena" doesn't remember Alex at first until he either plays his harp or is just plain annoyingly presistant, but then she does recognize him. So was Luna wholy Althena or was the whole "red eye" bit just Ghaleon's spell over a half resurrected Althena? Actually...doesn't Ghaleon say in SSSC that Althena has to take her power and become the goddess to complete his "turning the whole world into the Frontier...blah, blah, blah"?[/spoiler]

[DaWrestla]

She had the blue hair, so I'd say she was "wholly"

[Alunissage]

Since the thread title specifically mentions discussing the plot after finishing it, I think I'm going to dispense with spoiler tags.

Actually, persistence alone won't do it...you need to play the harp or ocarina or she kills you when you get to the top of the stairs -- this is why there's a potential bug if you played the SSSC demo and continued your save on the final game. If you removed the ocarina from Alex's inventory in the demo, you couldn't put it back in during the game (because the final game made it impossible to move it out of Alex's inventory to begin with) and so you wouldn't have it at the end of the game, when Nall is no longer in your party. It's kind of funny how that got there; the need to use the harp in TSS was a WD addition which GA liked well enough to use themselves in the remake, but this bug was a side effect because the ocarina could be moved like any other item, so you could get stuck if you saved after fighting Ghaleon. WD fixed the bug by making it impossible to give the ocarina to anyone else, but since this was done after the demo's release it made the bug far worse for people who played the demo.

Regarding red-eyed Luna...well, it does seem to be a gradual process. Ghaleon and the others are "making Luna sing evil songs" (or something like that) in Vane before Xenobia and sisters are unmasked (though I guess it's Lemia who's more literally unmasked, heh). In the Blue Dragon Shrine scene, the Magic Emperor says something about Luna coming closer to awakening with every note, or something like that, and one of the girls who escapes mentions how Luna was becoming more nurturing/leading/some adjective that would apply to returning to her Goddess role. I don't think the dark part of that shows up until the actual Black Dragon scene, though, when she still looks like Luna except for the eyes, and Luna herself breaks through briefly, perhaps long enough to do something important to help Alex; I don't remember the exact details. So while it doesn't have quite the same feel as pink-haired Althena seems to in DS, it's similar.

DaWrestla, I like my/Mia's theory in that other thread too, but sadly, I just don't think I can give the developers quite that much credit so as to believe they planned it that way. I think that, a la Cliche List (thanks a lot, DevNall; I stayed up way too late rereading that ) they grabbed for a nice round number of 1000 years before without realizing it'd been used already. I came up with that other scenario to try to reconcile it, and yes, the assumption that 1000 could be 980 and 1020 or whatever was built into it. I'm glad that you find it sound, though. Which reminds me of something else I meant to mention on that thread.

[MiaOne]

She had the blue hair, so I'd say she was "wholly"

But, Luna had blue hair So you really couldn't tell.

Oooh yeeeaaah I totally forgot about having to use the Orcarina in SSSC, see that last "Silver Star" I played was Legend, and you just keep walking in that one.

[Angelalex242]

I'm just somewhat annoyed Ignatius was able to do significant damage to Althena in the first place. Especially with a spell.

It's not like he was stabbing Althena with her own sword. He was just using plain old magic.

And a goddess, you'd think, should be able to shrug that off.

Mainly because Ignatius couldn't possibly be hitting harder then Zophar. But Lucia can block Zophar's hits...

[DaWrestla]

I'm just somewhat annoyed Ignatius was able to do significant damage to Althena in the first place. Especially with a spell.

All the more reason to believe that Althena still has a lot of Lucia left in her. I mean, even Luna at the end of SSSC doesn't look like Althena does in Pre-DS, Pre-SSSC, and EBC. DS Althena and SSSC Althena/Luna look REALLY similar, but not quite what Althena really looks like when she has no physical attachments to Humanity.

EDIT:

Also, (saw this in a LMS post, and it's true) in DS it seems like Althena simply chose to be Lucia. In other words, she wasn't "born" a human. This is supported by the fact that she and Jian simply met awhile before the game starts, and then after the game is over and Althena disappears, Lucia just "comes back".

I still think this could fit into the overall DS SSSC EBC timeline. Maybe Luna's birth was the first time Althena was actually BORN a human, which is what would make her special. Though I guess in EBC it specifically states Althena was BORN many times in the past...does it *specifically* say re-BORN?

[MiaOne]

Well, Althena could of been BORN as Lucia and Jian and her just met a few months or years ago. I mean if you think about it Ignatius seemed to have known about Althena's abscence in devine form for a long time...and building a whole Vile Tribe probably look him longer than a few months or years.

And if Ignatius can damage Althena/Lucia in the game, then that's probably a pretty soild point to a theory that Lucia is NOT Althena in the game and she had not aquired her powers. Maybe Lucia just accepted the fact that she was the human form of Althena and started to play along with Ignatius' game...I mean it seemed to me that Luna had some inkling as well...

[Angelalex242]

Well, she clearly has some powers...enough to teleport Jian and Gabi to the Cathedral of Althena, and that's before the Chamber of Rebirth. (Which she calls the Cathedral of Althena, not 'my cathedral', notably.)

But yes.

If Zophar>Ignatius
And Althena>LuciaEBC

Then there's no way in hell Lucia could've been fully revived as Althena.

[DaWrestla]

If Zophar>Ignatius
And Althena>LuciaEBC

Then there's no way in hell Lucia could've been fully revived as Althena.

Yeah, baby! We're working some of this ish out! I Love it! That's what I started this thread for.

[MiaOne]

Well, she clearly has some powers...enough to teleport Jian and Gabi to the Cathedral of Althena, and that's before the Chamber of Rebirth. (Which she calls the Cathedral of Althena, not 'my cathedral', notably.)

Well, like what Ghaleon did with "Dark Althena" in TSS, Ignatius could of done to Lucia...kind of taught her how to harness the amazing power that was still kept within the human body of Lucia. I mean, all she's probably TRIED to do was Althena's magic (healing) she probably had untapped black magic there too, without having to take her full goddess state.

[Alunissage]

Actually, aside from teleporting Jian and Gab away, we only see Althena do destructive magic -- the Blue Star, shooting down Vane, raising the Fortress (destroying the temple, and sucking up the life of the world afterward), even perhaps the sickness in Pao in SSSC. Then again, all but the first were when she was under the control of someone else, and the sickness is just the flip side of healing, which I still think is her primary trait, given what her statues, priests, and human forms do. (Though TSS Luna does have the spell Destruction, if you level her enough -- which most players won't since she's in the party for so little time.)

I'm getting the feeling that being under someone else's control, well, makes her vulnerable to that person. That's kind of circular, I know, but consider that Althena became human to escape Ignatius...therefore, he must have already had some power over her even when she was a goddess. I would guess that the office of dragonmaster gave him this, and so Zophar's power against blue Lucia (maybe I should just start calling her Lucier ) isn't really a valid comparison. I'd see it as similar to how a weak elemental weapong will often do more damage to an enemy vulnerable to that element than a stronger nonelemental weapon would.

[Angelalex242]

Althena...doesn't seem to do a whole lot after she brings humanity to the Blue Star, unless she's being controlled by someone else. She just hangs out up there in her tower and...does nothing. Except hang out with the Dragonmaster if there is one.

I kinda wish there were a game where we see Althena when she's still quite happy to help humanity with whatever they need help with. She can't ALWAYS have had this 'I suck, humans would be better off without me' mentality. ...Ya know, SSSC may never have happened if Althena had just had a therapist to teach her about self esteem.

Maybe a game where your Dragonmaster character can actually summon Althena to do cool stuff...either for plot purposes, or even just for the hell of it.

[MiaOne]

Isn't the idea of the Dragonmaster to protect Althena, not summon her for useless "cool" purposes?

[Alunissage]

There presumably isn't much story-worthy stuff going on then. Or at least no save-the-world stuff, if Althena is doing just fine. And we can't have an RPG without the world in danger. So the developers probably haven't seen any reason to show what she actually does or what a dragonmaster would normally do -- you certainly can't assume they do nothing just because it's not shown. I was disappointed in this plot rehash, as I wanted to see Althena in a "normal" setting myself, but I'm not really surprised; EB felt like a rehash of TSS to me too.

SSSC might not have happened, but TSS would've. Another reason why the changes SSSC made suck.

[Angelalex242]

Therapist:Okay, Althena, tell me about your childhood...
Althena:I'm a goddess, I don't HAVE A childhood...
Therapist:And how does that make you feel?
Althena:Sad...lonely...I'll never know what it's like for humans with childhoods...even when I reincarnate myself as a human, it's not the same thing...