Lunar: TSS speed run v2.0

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Lunar: TSS speed run v2.0

Postby scaryice » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:51 am

Ok, I think it's time to start this thread. I'm not promising that this will be done any time soon, but I'll get around to it eventually. This thread will track my planning and progress.

The first thing I probably need to do is buy a capture card so I don't have to tape it on a vcr. I'll worry about that later.

As far as the game itself, there's a bunch of things that can be improved. Due to the lack of difficulty, it's really not necessary to have 10 segments. In fact, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done in one segment. The previous time was 3:35. I think I can cut that time by 10 minutes at least despite doing it all at once.

There's only two spots where there's a big risk of dying (bronze dogs, vile soldiers w/Alex solo). Both of those are in the first half of the game too. It's absolutely necessary that you flee correctly. The other random thing are the plants you need to fight to get the giant root.

Here are the things I need to figure out before any attempts are made:

1) Magic AI bug. I did not know about this until recently. It should make the bosses even easier, and I'll have to learn how to use it properly.

2. Boss optimization. I need more detailed plans of attack for the bosses. Especially when it comes to utilizing Mia and Nash, and what spells to use. Or what items to use in battle instead.

2) Item optimization. I certainly could've been more efficient with my item purchases. I need to make a list of exactly what items I will buy, sell, use, and find throughout the game. I forget if I needed any more wind essences, also.

3) Amulets. Do they really decrease the appearance rate that much, and therefore are worth using? I didn't notice much of a difference.

4) Event triggers. There were a couple instances where I wasn't sure exactly which people you needed to talk to for how many times.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

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Postby Benevolent_Ghaleon » Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:22 pm

I fully support this. Make history.

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Postby scaryice » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:41 am

:idea: A thought occurs. If I don't level up before the Bronze dogs, it will make the following fights more difficult.

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Postby scaryice » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:49 am

I'm playing through the game again and just got past the Luna kidnapping. Turns out that not leveling up won't hurt me at all, thanks to better item management and the magic AI "bug." That definitely makes things even easier, and helped a bunch against the "lizards" and the 1v6 vile battle.

For the bronze dogs, I figure there's about a 1 in 3 chance of fleeing correctly so that I don't die. It's only about 30 minutes into the game so that's not too bad.

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Postby Benevolent_Ghaleon » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:09 pm

I've considered attempting to beat a Lunar quickly but each time i try to do it, i just end up talking to everybody and reading everything. I can't seem to keep from it.

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Postby scaryice » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:09 am

Well, I beat the game again. One of the big things I missed last time was not picking up the pixie bow for Nash. That helps a lot. I also forgot about the mountain shortcut near Burg. There's also a couple of spots where the event triggers will be smoother. Like for instance, I realized that it's not necessary to see Ghaleon on the roof of Myght's Tower.

I'm also now armed with an improved knowledge of boss strategies, and my item usage will be much improved. I'm making a list of every item pickup and equipment change I'll make throughout the entire thing.

Anyone have any suggestions for capture cards?

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Postby scaryice » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:38 am

I believe this is completes, if my notes are correct. I'm gonna play through it at least one more time before I actually attempt a run, just to perfect it.

ITEM LIST

(Not including story items. Also missing those used in battle, which I'll fill in eventually.)

1. Burg-get/equip dagger, heavy clothes (Alex)
2. Weird Woods-get heavy clothes
3. Burg-get 500s from mom
4. Lighthouse-get sling, leather armor
5. Saith-get 100s from man, deequip Luna
6. Meribia-buy 6 jasmines, 3 calm herbs
7. Sewer-get 3 starlights, 3000s from Dross, deequip Ramus, Nash (???), equip garbage can lid, gloves (Alex)
8. Meribia-sell items, buy/equip carapace Armor, helmet (AleX)
9. Trial Cave-get holy flute, 2 silver lights
10. Vane-get/use hyram nut, music box
11. Lann Island-give/equip carapace armor, garbage can lid, gloves (Jessica), get/use wind essence, deequip Jessica
12. Silver Spire-reequip Alex, get magic robe (Nash???), seed of vigor, herb of althena
13. Crystal Tower-get/use dover nut
14. Meribia-sell music box, vigor seed, various armor, buy 2 wind essences
15. White Dragon Cave-use wind essence
16. Nanza-get/equip chain mail (Kyle)
17. Reza-sell leather clothes (???), get rain cloud, get/use itaku nut
18. Iluk-get/use alcana nut
19. Damon's Spire-get/use dover nut
20. Red Dragon Cave-use wind essence
21. Blue Dragon Cave-get/equip holy shield (Jessica)
22. Myght's Tower-deequip Laike when leaving, equip scrimtar (Alex)
23. Grimzol's Cave-get/equip/use pixie whip (Tempest), pixie bow (Nash), wind essence, insane sword (Kyle)
24. Black Dragon's Cave-get/equip holy clothes (Nash???), dyne's sword (Alex)
25. Marke-get/equip holy claw, saint clothes (Jessica)
26. Black Dragon's Cave #2-get/equip insane armor (Kyle), holy flute
27. Taben Tower-get/equip holy clothes (Mia)
28. Meribia-deequip/sell any leftover items, deequip/sell Mia's weapon, get/equip herbs of althena, buy/sell sage's clothes
29. Reza-get/equip seeds of vigor
30. Ghaleon's Tower-before Xenobia, deequip Holy Claw

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Postby scaryice » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:00 am

I think now I'm going to do some tests on the amulet to see if it's worth it, and also if it has any effect in caves.

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Postby Benevolent_Ghaleon » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:47 pm

Scaryice: Boldly going where no Lunar fan has gone before. Again.

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Postby Alunissage » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:38 pm

Um, this is pretty much SOP for speedruns. TSS isn't the only RPG to be speedrun, though it's the only Lunar one -- no surprise there, it's the only one where you can reliably run from battle. Unfortunately, the sort of Lunar stuff I know isn't at all applicable to speedruns.

Are you planning to do it single-segment? I remember thinking you were getting a whole lot of Herbs of Althena that weren't needed.

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Postby scaryice » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:15 pm

Yeah, it's gonna be single segment. The list may be SOP, but I didn't do it the first time. I'm almost embarrassed to look at the old run after realizing how many ways I can improve it now.

I did a little testing with the amulet and I didn't notice any difference. Unfortunately, I don't think it gives you a message saying that it's worn off.

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Postby Alunissage » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:30 am

Do you know what levels party members are at various points? I know you're not planning on levelling people up, but one thing that occurs to me is that if TSS divides the total EXP among the surviving party (which I don't remember if it does for bosses, though I don't know why it wouldn't) then you might want to selectively kill off party members in boss battles to level up other party members faster. The reason I bring this up is that I think Jessica has an encounter-decrease spell but you probably won't level her up enough to get it. There may be other spells you'll want to plan on people getting; if you're running from every battle but the bosses it should be possible to determine exactly what level each character will be at at each point in the game since the amount of EXP they'll get is known.

What are you planning to have each party member do in the boss battles? Having Jess heal in the last, I assume, since you're de-equipping her weapon. I remember Nash doing some decent damage with the Boomerang you can buy in/just after Meryod; I later saw in the guide that it and another weapon set that person's ATK to a specific number, not just add to it. That could be useful if your people are low-level, which I imagine they will be, relatively, but you might also not have the funds to buy it. Also, if the above is correct regarding EXP, you'll probably want to plan on getting characters to a specific level to use such-and-such spell (psychotron comes to mind, instead of using wind essence). Do you have the guide? If not, I can send you the list of spells/effects/levels/MP, if you think that would be useful.

Regarding capture cards, did you check SDA's knowledge base? I haven't been looking at the forums there so I don't know if you asked there or anything. There may also be a thread about them at m2k2.

Did you decide to get the Goddess Cane or Recovery Cane? I can't remember when/where you get the Goddess Cane (except that it's late in the game), but if you can afford to have Mia heal instead of attacking it can be nice to do this without using any MP. Possibly have her use up her MP on big attack spells and then use the Cane to heal if needed; I don't know how long/hard your later boss battles are. The Recovery Cane is probably too out-of-the-way to get timewise though unless you're really being pounded in post-Reza boss battles.

Man, I really want to replay the game now. Maybe I'll see if my save still exists this weekend. I was in the process of levelling Laike up...

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Postby scaryice » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:08 am

Alunissage wrote:Do you know what levels party members are at various points? I know you're not planning on levelling people up, but one thing that occurs to me is that if TSS divides the total EXP among the surviving party (which I don't remember if it does for bosses, though I don't know why it wouldn't) then you might want to selectively kill off party members in boss battles to level up other party members faster. The reason I bring this up is that I think Jessica has an encounter-decrease spell but you probably won't level her up enough to get it. There may be other spells you'll want to plan on people getting; if you're running from every battle but the bosses it should be possible to determine exactly what level each character will be at at each point in the game since the amount of EXP they'll get is known.


The only random battles I fight are to get the giant root. Regarding letting people die, it doesn't matter. The one time I plan on doing that is with Ramus vs the Water Dragon, but I tested it and I can still beat the next few bosses. So that doesn't have to occur. Jessica's encounter-decrease spell, I'm not even leveled up enough to have that at the end of the game.

Alunissage wrote:What are you planning to have each party member do in the boss battles? Having Jess heal in the last, I assume, since you're de-equipping her weapon. I remember Nash doing some decent damage with the Boomerang you can buy in/just after Meryod; I later saw in the guide that it and another weapon set that person's ATK to a specific number, not just add to it. That could be useful if your people are low-level, which I imagine they will be, relatively, but you might also not have the funds to buy it. Also, if the above is correct regarding EXP, you'll probably want to plan on getting characters to a specific level to use such-and-such spell (psychotron comes to mind, instead of using wind essence). Do you have the guide? If not, I can send you the list of spells/effects/levels/MP, if you think that would be useful.


The basic plan is:

Alex-dragon magic/fight
Kyle-fight
Nash-fight
Mia-Deprotect/heal
Jessica-heal

Magic AI "trick" makes things easier. Never heard of the boomerang thing but I doubt I could afford it.

I only use wind essences when psychotron is not an option.

Alunissage wrote:Did you decide to get the Goddess Cane or Recovery Cane? I can't remember when/where you get the Goddess Cane (except that it's late in the game), but if you can afford to have Mia heal instead of attacking it can be nice to do this without using any MP. Possibly have her use up her MP on big attack spells and then use the Cane to heal if needed; I don't know how long/hard your later boss battles are. The Recovery Cane is probably too out-of-the-way to get timewise though unless you're really being pounded in post-Reza boss battles.


I never attack with Mia, it's pointless. I'm not having a problem with battles. The game gets easier as you go on.

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Postby scaryice » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:31 am

I realized last night that at the Star Chamber vs the two pipers, they're vulnerable to Nash's thunder thumper spell. It was an easy fight anyway, but that's another improvement. Now I'm gonna have to test it out on all the bosses.

Another thing to test out will be rainbow drops, which mean that "Monsters can only use magic attacks for duration of battle." Never messed with them before.

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Postby scaryice » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:14 am

Thunder thumper works on the Brainiac as well (sometimes), which is helpful. Also works on the tank you might in the mine. Doesn't work on the black dragon AFAIK.

I think I'm ready to get this done. Of course, actually doing it will be hard since it takes over 3 hours to go through it. Actually, I had my first attempt last night, but I -Fatal Hopper- up in Meribia. I was buying the carapace armor/helmet. I had bought the armor when I realized I didn't have enough money for the helmet. So I then sold the armor in my inventory, which of course was the armor that I just bought. Oops. I forgot to unequip Alex's heavy clothes.

I look forward to more frustration in the future.

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Postby Alunissage » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:20 pm

Hehe, enjoy.

The magic/AI bug works with items too, at least in that review copy I won on eBay. Turn the AI/item on, then have that character use an item in battle; he/she should attack after that. I tested it with Alex and Laike. Might be useful to have Jessica use Herbs of Althena at the end when Ghaleon's teleporting all over the place, and of course if you're ever having Kyle or Alex use items (i.e. Alex's solo battles if you're running out of MP/health) then it could make a difference. Of course, it would depend on the battle and whether the time spent in extra attacks is worth the extra damage; it probably would be useless on the water dragon in the sewers since I don't recall physical attacks doing squat on it.

So De-protect actually lowers defense enough to speed up the battle more than whatever Mia's strongest attack spell is at that time? I tended to have her using the recovery cane so I don't remember how good her attack spells were on bosses.

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Postby scaryice » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:15 am

Yeah, I'm aware that it works for items too.

Mia hardly does any damage at all with magic. And for the bosses where magic does work well (like the tanks), their physical defense is higher which makes deprotect even more valuable. The only time I have her use attack magic is her first boss fight in the star chamber.

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Postby exigence » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:21 am

Alunissage wrote:Hehe, enjoy.

it probably would be useless on the water dragon in the sewers since I don't recall physical attacks doing squat on it.


it would work if you equiped the sling or crossbow
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Postby Alunissage » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:48 am

I'm not talking about whether it's possible to do damage to the Water Dragon but whether it's worth the time spent doing so. To use an extreme example, if your character moves around the screen and then uses the sling to do 1 point of damage and then the next round the monster is finished off by a spell which does more damage than the monster has has HP left, then that 1-damage sling attack was a waste of time because the spell would finish it off anyway.

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Postby scaryice » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:29 am

I have the AI thing all planned out as well.

1. Lann Island cave. Jessica is at a higher level, so I give her Alex's armor and let her fight against the lizards while Alex heals. Before the fight, turn her magic AI on in case she needs to use calm litany. Afterwards turn it back off.

2. Crystal Tower. Before this fight, turn Alex's magic/item AI on.

3. Burg Springs. Before the 1 on 6 boss fight, turn Alex's magic AI off. By the second turn when I use magic (first turn = flee), he's still not boxed in by the enemies. Afterwards turn it back on.

4. Nanza. After getting Kyle, turn his AI on/on.

5. Grimzol's cave. Turn Nash's AI on/on after getting Pixie whip.

6. Black Dragon cave. Before fighting him, turn Alex and Kyle's magic AI off. That way, they can attack him the first turn without risk. Afterwards turn it back on.

That's it.


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