A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

For discussion of Lunar: Eternal Blue, the remake of Lunar 2 for Saturn/Playstation and all its translations
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A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by LunarRaptor »

Basically, I'm replaying the PSX Remakes again. I've complete, Silver Star Story Complete, and now I'm doing Eternal Blue Complete. I have to say, the reasons why I don't like Eternal Blue even half as much as I like SS(S(C)) are coming back to me.

1. I don't find the characters to be nearly as enduring as Alex, Luna, Nash, Mia, Jessica, Kyle, and Nall.
Hiro just doesn't have that special quality that Alex has that makes you like him. I do like Hiro, but I can't quit describe what he's lacking. I guess just I missed some of that old-fashioned "pure of heart" stuff that Alex had. Not to mention that I frankly don't buy that he goes out on a limb for Lucia like that early on.
Seriously, there's no question why Alex just about kills himself over and over and over for Luna, but there's absolutely no reason given why Hiro has to do crap for Lucia until WAY later. He risking his life against the Guard of Althena for someone he met ten minutes ago! It would have been much easier to buy if Hiro had been forced into the events in some other manner. the thing that's supposed to be between Hiro and Lucia just isn't clicking with me.
Then there's Ruby...that accursed raging hellbeast. I liked Nall. Nall was hilarious and mischievous. Ruby was just annoying. All her "Stay away from Hiro! HE's MINE...despite that our difference in species frankly prevents us from being anything than friends...HE's Mine!" Gad, I didn't like the jealous wannabe girlfriend type in Love Hino. Why would I appreciate here? Then there's her constant begging Hiro to do things. "I wanna do this! I wanna do that! canwecanwecanwecanwe, Hiro?!"
Lucia is just Rei Ayanami all over again, and once was enough for that character. Girk. Then there's all the insulting fan service surrounding her "character development". The creators excuse was that they were trying show her becoming "more human". Yeah, whatever. Its not like there are a thousand other ways to do that...oh wait, there are.
Ronfar is basically an angsty Kyle as a Healer.
Jean is basically a less cool, and more angsty Jessica as a karate chick. I'm noticing a pattern here...
Lemina is everything you don't want in a person, period. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY! Look, creators, if I didn't like the greedy types before, I'm not going to start now.
And Leo...the less said about him, the better.
Gwen...Gwen was actually pretty cool. Cliched, old, all-knowing guy, but hey, it worked.

2. Bring back Gwen! Why? Well, for one thing, he's the only party member, other than Hiro, who hasn't been dead weight so far. The only thing Ronfar has going for him is that he heals you. Jean doesn't do quat against the enemies yet. And Lucia only attacks when attacked, which is like 1 out of every 10 battles. Half the time I forget she's even there. I am aware this is not permanant, but Hiro shouldn't is the only one pulling his weight in the offensive category. I can only hope I can get past clown boy again so I can pick up Lemina after the Haunted House.
In the traditon of Ramus, that one party member you ditch early on should not be above everyone else whose showed up to fill the gap enough that you find yourself wanting him back.
Speaking of Ramus, I find it interesting that they apparently have genetic engineering on Lunar now. Apparently, some lab techs must have made the one who appears in Eternal Blue to make the original's shop more successful again.

3. As I stated, The party in Silver Star was MUCH better. Yes, I know it seems like I'm playing unfair here and I'm repeating myself, but seriously. I should not have to wait to make my party good (or just better). I know the creators were trying to make it more difficult, but that could have simply been a matter of making the enemies tougher. Not making the people surrounding Hiro more incompetent than Alex's group ever was. And these people are largely older and more experienced than the previous group, just as another kick in the teeth!
Luna had uber awsome songs that did wonderful things.
Nash was a great mage. All his spells were very effective (aside from a few exceptions in circumstance)
And Mia was even better! Her fire and ice spells, plus her status up spells were sweet! If I wanted offensive magic back-up, there was no question who I was picking.
Jessica, like Ronfar, was a good healer, but she had "reliability" when I needed her to do something else. ...Such as crushing enemy's skulls in with her mace.
Kyle is everything that Jean fails to be until after you've her for a while. Kyle is at least as good as Alex was before he starting having a decent line-up of his dragon gear equipped, which basically means Kyle kicks ass no matter the situation.

My point? If I get a great bunch like in the first game without having to go through hell early on then I see no reason why Hiro is the only one dealing any significant damage to the other side in Eternal Blue Complete. Its like I'm just pushing my way past the enemies with sheer brute force and will, and succeeding just barely because Ronfar is the only one who truly is helping up to date!

4. The villains....yeah. They're villains. Alright, yes, Zophar might be more along the lines of the greedy warmongers we have to real life in terms of motives (power, domination, however you want to put it), but he's little more than Snidley Whiplash in terms of depth, while lacking being even half as amusing.
Not to mention that the assistance that Zophar receives largely doesn't have half the personality that Ghaleon's Vile Tribe sisters had. Royce and Xenobia were purely evil, but they, at least, weren't boring. And Phacia is the only one you say I liked without feeling dirty.
Ghaleon's return was a nice touch (even better to see him redeemed after he messed up thoroughyl before), though. He breathed some life into opposition's side, which did not exist otherwise.
Leo...yeah, Leo. Pompous, annoying blowhard. I wish he died. I would love to stain Hiro's sword with his blood. There's only thing that somewhat detours that wish for me:
Mauri. Alright, this one actually had some interesting parts. One, she's under a spell, basically making her another Luna. Spell is broken, she turns almost sickeningly sweet. Oh well. At least she levels off Ronfar well enough.
Seeing her in a scene where you have to tell her: "Yo, killed you bro. Hope tha tisn't a problem," would be little much.

End of rant. Sorry, gents, I just needed to get that off my chest.
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Sonic# »

Wow. I am going to get in on this. What it seems to me is that the major point you make that I would dispute is that the characters in Lunar 2 aren't as good.
Seriously, there's no question why Alex just about kills himself over and over and over for Luna, but there's absolutely no reason given why Hiro has to do crap for Lucia until WAY later. He risking his life against the Guard of Althena for someone he met ten minutes ago!
Since when did we expect the main hero of our games to be cynical? The way I saw it, Hiro lives in this remote place without anyone interfering. Then suddenly these people show up looking for a destroyer... and here Lucia is, not appearing to be a destroyer at all. We have it ingrained in our head that we're going to bow down to authority's reasons by default, because they've been around us all our lives, and surely they know how to take care of the situation. Hiro has no such impulse. He is allowed to be skeptical, and makes the right choice. We know he's into adventure; maybe he doesn't even realize how much he's risking his life.

He doesn't need to know her to help her.
Then there's Ruby...that accursed raging hellbeast. I liked Nall. Nall was hilarious and mischievous. Ruby was just annoying. All her "Stay away from Hiro! HE's MINE...despite that our difference in species frankly prevents us from being anything than friends...HE's Mine!" Gad, I didn't like the jealous wannabe girlfriend type in Love Hino. Why would I appreciate here? Then there's her constant begging Hiro to do things. "I wanna do this! I wanna do that! canwecanwecanwecanwe, Hiro?!"
Yeah, Nall gets frustrated by that too. But that's just how she starts out. She grows up.
Lucia is just Rei Ayanami all over again, and once was enough for that character. Girk. Then there's all the insulting fan service surrounding her "character development". The creators excuse was that they were trying show her becoming "more human". Yeah, whatever. Its not like there are a thousand other ways to do that...oh wait, there are.
I would dispute she's Rei, but I can't dispute the fan service.
Ronfar is basically an angsty Kyle as a Healer.
Jean is basically a less cool, and more angsty Jessica as a karate chick. I'm noticing a pattern here...
Lemina is everything you don't want in a person, period. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY! Look, creators, if I didn't like the greedy types before, I'm not going to start now.
And Leo...the less said about him, the better.
Gwen...Gwen was actually pretty cool. Cliched, old, all-knowing guy, but hey, it worked.
Here, I get really lost. For Ronfar and Jean, is seeing them in terms of the characters of the first game the only way to see them? If they don't seem to work really well, maybe it's because the comparisons aren't meant to work like that. Ronfar is a disillusioned priest and a sincere lover, while Kyle never had to experience any disillusionment and had more difficulty with his love. Jean and Jessica have nothing in common except for their gender. Lemina, again, is given a problem to eventually grow out of, and her greed for money is really to save her magic city, which I would consider noble. (Like Nash and his pride?)
In the traditon of Ramus, that one party member you ditch early on should not be above everyone else whose showed up to fill the gap enough that you find yourself wanting him back.
Yeah, I miss Laike too.

I've run out of time to go over these things with you, but I think you're being a bit unfair. ^^;;; It seems like you wish the game worked as well as SSSC, but criticize it by drawing direct comparisons to it. Especially the part you write on battles, where I actually preferred some of Jean's fighting techniques to anyone else's in the game.
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Kizyr »

Plus, Leo is one of the best-developed characters in any game. Jean comes a close second for the Lunar series specifically.

Lemina's greed is only superficial. There are a lot of reasons for it that, once understood, really serve to highlight how she's not really greedy at all. Some of it has to do with her upbringing: she's had to make a lot of financial sacrifices and scrounge for every silver piece simply to keep the Magic Guild up and running. Even her insistence on charging for use of Vane's magic items makes sense (whereas how other places are totally fine with you pilfering their treasure chests). KF
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

It's funny to read this, because I had many of the same reactions to the characters when I first played EB, and, to an extent, EBC. Since the characters seem to be your main beef, I'll address each in turn.

Hiro: I had the same thought about the ridiculousness of his instant partisanship for Lucia against Leo. Besides the cynical reason of that she's just prettier than Leo and he's not used to human-looking girls, I did think of a couple of reasons why he might instantly take her side. First, he probably didn't have a terribly positive opinion of Leo, who treated him like a child when they first meant and then was brusque and even rude to Gwyn when the latter did not give him an immediate authoritative answer to a question that had no proven answer (how to get into the Blue Spire). Second, his head is filled with legends of Althena and general romanticism, and seeing "some sort of goddess or something" appear before him in real life would have had a very strong impact on him. Third, unlike Leo, he had seen this associate of Althena's struck down by an evil being who was straightforward about his hostile intent toward Althena and the dragons, and who recognized Lucia as being on the side of those dragons. For that reason alone I think he would see Lucia as someone to be defended, since she's clearly seen as an enemy by that entity.

Also, isn't it Ruby who tells Leo that a monster in the Blue Spire had attacked Lucia? This is in fact what happened, isn't it? Leo does not yet know the identity of the so-called destroyer he is pursuing. In fact, had he been present for the abovementioned scene, he probably would have correctly identified the Destroyer as Zophar rather than Lucia.

Ruby: Yes, she's immensely annoying. Less so in the remakes than the original, though. The multiple character portraits help, I think. We don't really see how her and Hiro relate to each other in "normal" circumstances, though, and the "he's MINE!" thing may have been a longstanding joke. Can't you see Hiro saying something to Ruby, at a much younger age, about always being together no matter what? Neither of them would have considered the possibilities of his meeting someone else because they live in this isolated corner of the world.

Lucia: Yes, the fanservice was dumb. I think the first spring worked well enough, though; having slept naked in her crystal and then walking outside that way she wouldn't have thought anything odd about it; the uniform seems to signal that she's on duty rather than that she needs to be covered. The second scene, at the water ruins, was sillier. Where would she have picked all that up? There isn't anything specific during the story (I think?) that would suggest she'd become aware of the nudity taboo, except possibly Jean and Lemina smacking Hiro and Ronfar around while she picks out her new clothes. I think the original scene, in Taben's Peak, may have worked better.

Ronfar: Yes, too much flirting and womanizing for someone who's already in love. He's a bit more intelligent than Kyle, though, and except for a couple of scenes is more determined rather than angsty IMO. He does show early on that he's able to be serious about assessing people and doing what he feels is right, when he conceals Hiro and Lucia from Leo.

Jean: Again, mostly not terribly angsty except during select moments. I do think her scene of re-donning her karate uniform is overwrought. To be honest, I'm kind of blanking on what her personality is like the rest of the time, which is perhaps your point. I don't think I see her as similar to Jessica, though, aside from being a fighter (which Jess kind of lost in the remake). I think maybe part of the problem is that for about the first half of the game we don't have a really compelling reason for her to come along and get deeply involved in the quest. She wants to talk to Master Lunn, and that's about it. Ronfar has chosen to go with Lucia and Hiro for their own sakes and also to consider addressing his personal issues, but Jean (and Lemina) are just along for the ride since they're headed in the same direction.

Lemina: Hard to disagree there. She grates on my nerves quite a bit, no matter how noble her motives. I actually like her better in the EB manga, since she works with Borgan (!) for some of it.

Leo: Actually, I think he's the most interesting and has the most development throughout the game, so I have to disagree with you there; he became my favorite character. But yes, I spent the first half of the game thinking he was really obnoxious. It was handled a bit better in the remake, except maybe for Azado.

Gwyn: Yeah, he's pretty okay. He has four different running-away voice clips, which people hardly hear. He was also given those two fairly nifty spells in the remake, provided you level up enough in the Spire to get them. But in general I would have like to see him have more game time too.

Regarding Lucia's attacking, I put her in the front of the party so she's more likely to get hit and therefore to hit back. After all, if she does get killed off, that's more EXP for everyone else. I do have to say that it's massively annoying to have her get dazed and then kill off the party, which happened to me in the SegaCD game.

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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by LunarRaptor »

Response to Sonic:

I'm not saying Hiro should be cynical, but I frankly just can't buy that he's willing to go as far as risk his life for her yet. I can buy that he gets into trouble with Leo and has to flee and gets caught up in the grander scheme that way, and ergo, Lucia's cause becomes his own. Just not completely dedicated right from the get go. I find his motives for going that far in helping her early on to be flimsy.
"He might not have known how much he was risking." Hiro's not stupid. First Zophar showed up and put that terrible curse on Lucia, then Leo (who had a bigass ship with magically-charged cannons) showed up wanting to find Lucia the so-called "Destroyer". Hiro, even if he didn't know the full extent, knew he was going to be in deep...really deep, even more the full revelation.

I know it isn't required that Hiro know the individual in need to help to stop and be a good Samaritan. I wish they'd found some other way to get him lynched into the events. I still think that he, Ruby, and Gwen having to go on the run from Leo after helping Lucia initially when she was cursed. At the time, they didn't know they were feeding Leo information that contradicted his own, so its understandible that they'd be in trouble later. It also would be infinitely more believable.
Yeah, Nall gets frustrated by that too. But that's just how she starts out. She grows up.
I know, but she should be past that kind of immaturity. She's at least as old as Hiro. Age 18. More than old enough to be more accountable.
I would dispute she's Rei, but I can't dispute the fan service.
Well, she's not exactly Rei, but the cold, inability to express emotions or understand them early on is a marked similarity that I did not appreciate. Not to mention in the opening title sequence with the ruins, you can clearly see her amongst humans way back whenas well, so she should have picked up something from them.

I know Ronfar and Jean don't have to be exactly like Kyle and Jessica, but they should at least be as consistantly helpful. Jessica rocked no matter what kind of attack or spell you set her to, as did Kyle. Why should Jean practically be useless when you first pick her up? Why do none of Ronfar's attacks have any reliability? I don't care if he's a gambler, I shouldn't have to debate whether or not I want to use him for anything if no one needs healing, in case the Destiny Dice roll bad. Then he's set to just stand there, as dead weight. Then half the enemies as immune to Jean's special abilities, because all her stuff is status effect magic. Her fan tossing is less tham impressive as well.
And I'm not just comparing them to Kyle and Jessica. I didn't mention this, but comparitively, to most other RPG party members, they are considerably less helpful. Did Final Fantasy VI/III have a single party member that was absolute dead weight? Did Secret of Mana? Did Chrono Trigger?
As for Lemina. I don't care about motives or how noble they are. Its what a person says and does concerning those motives that matters. Its like Ghaleon. He wants to do good. However, are any of his actions actually good? No. Ergo, I don't really care what he wants as long as he's making life a living hell for Lunar. What's inside is not defining him here. He will always be the Magic Emperor whoa lmost destroyed Lunar. Why? Because of his actions.
Just the same, Lemina is being a greedy, pushy brat. Her own behavior is defining her.
Yeah, I miss Laike too.
Well, Laike is more a guest then anything else, but yeah, basically. My point was that Gwen, my throwaway party member, shouldn't be more helpful to me when he was around than Ronfar, Jean, and Lucia are right now, combined. Gwen had reliably decent attack stats. His healing was good, and his stat weakening spells saved my hide in the Blure Spire Guardian boss fight.
I can't say the same Ronfar, Lucia, and Jean in the boss fight against the Magic Tester. Aside from Ronfar's healing, Hiro was the only one saving the day. Hiro did, by far, the most damage. Lucia died several times because the annoyance targeted her everytime. Hell, that's the reason I kept resurrecting her. As long as she was there, she was Magic Tester's top priority. Then Jean was only good for using items, because she didn't do squat in damage. Lucia was dead half the time, so her one attack didn't amount to much. Hey, Lucia, wanna use the magic shield spell on us any?
Never, NEVER, NEVER did I once feel like Alex was ever the only one doing all the fighting when I had Nash, Mia, Jessica, and Kyle around! Heck, I didn't even feel that way when it was Alex, Luna, and Ramus, and I had Luna hanging back. Well, here I am in Lunar: Eternal Blue, surrounded by the people I'm permanantly stuck with, and Hiro might as well only have Ronfar with him.

Its like the makers were trying to do with this bunch what Square did with the FFVI (or FFIII, if you played it ont he Super NES) group. You can, through the plot, get all the characters upped uberly. Only Locke, Cyan and everyone were pretty good party members even before that.
I've run out of time to go over these things with you, but I think you're being a bit unfair. ^^;;; It seems like you wish the game worked as well as SSSC, but criticize it by drawing direct comparisons to it. Especially the part you write on battles, where I actually preferred some of Jean's fighting techniques to anyone else's in the game.
Thank you very much for your time.
I know it seems like I wish it worked more like the first game did, but that's only because the first game works SO well. The makers changed things that didn't need changing, and they complicated using characters who should have simple functions.
As for Jean's fighting abilities, I have to agree to disagree with you. Your preference in characters is neither right or wrong.

Response to Kizyr:

Leo the most developed character? I couldn't disagree with that more. Jean was well-developed, but there have been a million misguided good guys serving evil like Leo before. Leo may not be a flat character, but I find most of the characters in the first game to be deeper.

Response to Alunissage:

Only this isn't my reaction after just playing through the first time. I've beaten the game a few times now. My opinion of this matter has never changed. That being said, I should probably go easier on Leo, because I'm probably about as stubborn as he is. :roll:

Hiro: I have taken that into consideration, too, but it still seems flimsy. For one thing, why can't Althena tak care of herself? To Hiro's knowledge, she had never lived and died as Luna and was still an invincible, all-powerful, holy, immortal being who has the power to create all life on a world. From his position, there's absolutely no reason why he needs to do anything beyond curing Lucia's curse. Which I why I just wish they'd have had Leo come after them and make them all go on the run, and have Gwen get killed or something. I can see Leo growing impatient and slaughtering an old man in anger.

Yes, that's what happened inthe scene after they left the Blue Spire. To their knowledge, before Leo uttered the words "Lucia the Destroyer", they had no idea that they were feeding him contradicting information than what he'd received.

Ruby: I really don't care why Ruby would go on her "HE's MINE" tirades. The only thing that matters is what she does, and needs to be more considerate. If Hiro can have the attitude that he does about growing closer to Lucia and helping her, then Ruby can, too. She has no excuse.

Lucia: Finally, someone who agrees on the fan service. I also consider sleeping nude inthe crystal a part of the useless fan service. There's no reason why she couldn't have been robed for that, so at the end of the day, the nudity thing was just that Lunar boys getting away with more after SS(S(C))'s success. Apparently, the writers just weren't willing to just let her character's words and actions show her becoming more and more human. Which is strange, because they did, largely, do a good job of that.

Ronfar: Yep, yep, yep. I don't really have a problem with Ronfar's character, other than his role really doesn't fit that of the resident "ladies' man".

Jean: She has the same kind of personality as Jessica, just angstier.
You also bring up a good point that I didn't find to be particularly annoying. Yeah, there's really no reason why Jean goes along with them. If they done something like she's repaying th favor for them saving her friends and helping her overcome some of her own personal qualms, that would have been a lot better. I also think some kind of oppression against the Magic Guild wouldn't have been too difficult to work in, hence giving Lemina more motive to side with them over Althena's Guard.
And yes, when she redawns her karate outfit, it is overdone.

Lemina: Thank you. Finally, someone who isn't making excuses for characters "because they're trying to do this while feeling this on the inside! You MUST be sympathetic!" I'm not, and don't intend to be, until after she shapes up.
Hmm. She's better in the manga. I might just need to get myself some of that, then.
Just the same, I also don't care what Nash's motives are. He acted inappropriately. I much prefer his more clever persona from the original version of Lunar: Silver Star.

Leo: True, he certainly isn't a flat character, but I've never been fond of him. He's an arrogant, stubborn blowhard. I just hate how he's completely unwilling to listen to what anyone else has to say or consider that he misunderstand what Althena was telling or whatever. Going into anything with that approach is just setting yourself up for a magnificant failure. Had he been successfull, and Zophar's plans worked, Leo would have been beside himself in the realization of how stupid he was moments before the jaws of death found him. He could, at least, have given Ronfar some benefit of the doubt. He's a thorn in your for much of the game.
His whole "masked hero" thing was just annoying. Leave the masked heroism to the pros, man. You are no Batman.
Being a three-deminsional character and being likable are two different things in my book. Can you say that Ghaleon is a compelling, well-developed character? Yes. Is he very likable? HELL NO!

Gwen: 8) Yep. In the Blue Spire, he's a lot more helpful to me than any of the other party members have been thus far, barring Lemina who has sweet magic. I really wish I could have kept Gwen. That's my point. I never wanted Ramus back. Why should I miss Gwen later? Its because Hiro quickly finds himself surrounded by incompetence.
Just look at my describe of the Magic Tester fight for my thoughts of the state of my party as of right before I picked Lemina.

As I stated in my first rant, these people are largely older and mor experienced than anyone in Alex's gang. The latter game's group should have been more powerful.

Hmm. I hadn't considered putting Lucia at the front because of her pitiful health. I should try that. I just might.
Last edited by LunarRaptor on Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by phyco126 »

My biggest complaint on the game is two fold:

The items cost twice as much and you get half as much money from fights (ouch!)

and...

The bosses are evil. VERY. Evil.
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by LunarRaptor »

Yes, they are.

I'm just thankful no treasure chest is off limits to us in this game.

That being said, things are running a lot more soothly now that I have Lemina. Now Hiro is up from "might as well just have Ronfar" to "might as well just have Ronfar AND Lemina". :roll:
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

Why do you keep referring to "Gwen"?? He's Gwyn in the US game and Guen in the Japanese artbooks. Pick one.

I dunno, even though I agree with you on some points you still sound like you're having a tantrum because you didn't get a clone of Lunar 1, while complaining that some of the characters are clones of other types. The thing that seems to bug you the most is the battle balance; not having played EBC in a while it's hard for me to comment on, but I don't recall it being as uneven as all that. I know that in EB I usually found Hiro to be annoyingly weak and underlevelled compared to the others, in fact. Anyway, it seems like you get annoyed because of the battle moves and then find reasons to get annoyed at the characters themselves.

Your rant would make more sense if you separated out complaints regarding gameplay from complaints regarding character. They really are two entirely separate things. Actually, I'm amazed that you consider SSSC to have worked so well; I recall thinking that it had considerable balance issues.

(Reading your posts, I'm not sure why you bother playing the game at all…)
I know it isn't required that Hiro know the individual in need to help to stop and be a good Samaritan. I wish they'd found some other way to get him lynched into the events. I still think that he, Ruby, and Gwen having to go on the run from Leo after helping Lucia initially when she was cursed. At the time, they didn't know they were feeding Leo information that contradicted his own, so its understandible that they'd be in trouble later. It also would be infinitely more believable.
I don't understand this at all, even after I figured that you probably meant "linked" rather than "lynched".
Well, she's not exactly Rei, but the cold, inability to express emotions or understand them early on is a marked similarity that I did not appreciate. Not to mention in the opening title sequence with the ruins, you can clearly see her amongst humans way back whenas well, so she should have picked up something from them.

1) I don't know who Rei is. Is she a character who existed before 1992? Why do you consider it a flaw in the characterization if it's been done elsewhere (as has every other personality type)?

2) What are you talking about? There is no indication that she interacted with humans prior to arriving on Lunar. The only depiction of her is the view of her crystal in the tower.
For one thing, why can't Althena tak care of herself? To Hiro's knowledge, she had never lived and died as Luna and was still an invincible, all-powerful, holy, immortal being who has the power to create all life on a world. From his position, there's absolutely no reason why he needs to do anything beyond curing Lucia's curse. Which I why I just wish they'd have had Leo come after them and make them all go on the run, and have Gwen get killed or something. I can see Leo growing impatient and slaughtering an old man in anger.
1) What makes you think Hiro has that completely naïve view of Althena? She's not set up to be all-knowing, all-powerful, etc. I'm sure I don't remember anything stated about her being believed to have created people. Althena is largely a legend to him, albeit a fascinating one. Seeing another powerful being would make him want to tag along just to find out more -- after all, since that being's mission is to find Althena, he might get to meet Althena too. And there's no reason for him to doubt Zophar's words and conclude that there's a threat to Althena and the dragons.

2) It's during the process of curing her curse that he ends up on the run, because it's in Ronfar's house that he hears of Leo's determination to find Lucia.

3) If you can see Leo cutting down an innocent man in irritation and impatience, you don't get his character at all. No wonder you don't like him.

By the way, does anyone else here think Jean = angsty Jess? Because I'm just not seeing it. Jessica is outspoken and forceful, born of self-confidence and needing to be strong-willed to stand up to Mel and Kyle (and probably other people in her life). We mainly see her playing off of Kyle, who probably says the things he does in part to make her react. If Jean were of the same cloth, she'd be responding similarly to Ronfar, but for the most part she doesn't. Unlike Jess, whose internal conflicts are limited to worrying that her father would be bothered if he knew how much like him she was rather than the docile girl she plays around him, Jean has serious issues reconciling her identity as an assassin with her new identity as a dancer. While I recall her having blunt remarks for obnoxious people, she doesn't seem so likely to slap them down, verbally or physically, as Jess. She mostly wants to get on with her life quietly, having spent some months or years avoiding fights rather than seeking them out as Jess does.

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LunarRaptor
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by LunarRaptor »

It was a simple error in spelling his name. Lay off.

I'm not throwing a tantrum. I just wanted to talk about this with other Lunar fans. I've been civil, so I'm hoping to keep this on a friendly level, alright.
You misunderstand me concerning me wanting a clone of Lunar 1. I don't want a clone. Its just some things that are well enough should be left alone, and it seems like the creators decided to play with all the things that were never issues to begin with.
Yes, the battle balance is what bugs me the most.
As for Hiro being under level or over leveled, I was level 15 when I left the Blue Spire this time, so that may account for him not lacking anything in power on my end.
No, I'm not finding things to rant about the characters because of their lack of good move sets.

I have qualms with both their moves and their personalities, and I wrote or one, then the other. I'll have to reread what I've typed, sorry if I wasn't very clear. I will fix my original post to be clearer.
(Reading your posts, I'm not sure why you bother playing the game at all…)
I'm bothering to play the game because it is still enjoyable despite all the annoyances. Besides which, the game does improve on what the characters are capable of in battle later.

I don't understand this at all, even after I figured that you probably meant "linked" rather than "lynched".
Sorry, my mind was partly somewhere else at the time.
Alright, what I meant was that I know Hiro doesn't have to know Lucia at all to want to help her, because she did need the help. Its sticking by her after things started becoming more dangerous before he'd had time to truly grow attached that I don't buy. I think if Leo had come after them all for helping Lucia, that it'd be much easier to explain how Hiro and Ruby get dragged into the bigger scheme of things.

I'll finish addressing your comments later. I have to get to bed.
"All you have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf the Gray

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phyco126
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by phyco126 »

LunarRaptor wrote:Yes, they are.
Heh, I mean, when I got to the end part of the game and Ramus was like "Hey, my ancestor helped the last dragonmaster out by giving him stuff from his store, so I'll do the same! But you have to pay for it, and there are no discounts. HAH!"

Then I was like "*eyetwitch*"
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Maru »

phyco126 wrote:
LunarRaptor wrote:Yes, they are.
Heh, I mean, when I got to the end part of the game and Ramus was like "Hey, my ancestor helped the last dragonmaster out by giving him stuff from his store, so I'll do the same! But you have to pay for it, and there are no discounts. HAH!"

Then I was like "*eyetwitch*"
You are too cute. I did the same thing. xD

I actually agree with a lot of the character jawns that Lunar Raptor is touching upon. But, I look at it as TSS and SSSC were such AMAZING games that it was a tough act to follow, especially in character development. However, I respect EB and EBC for what they are; a separate game from the first one and shouldn't necessarily be compared to like apples and oranges.

But I understand and respect your points. :D

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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by LunarRaptor »

Thank you very much for your comments, everyone. I want to point out that I do not hate Eternal Blue. I also do respect it. The issue is that I have a lot of qualms with why certain things were done, but I do enjoy a great many things about this game none the less. this thread is specificially about what I did not like about the game, although in retrospect I could have been more far and also posted of what I did enjoy. That being said, as I level up, my party members are shaping becoming increasingly useful, and Lucia has become more useful now that I've bumped her ot the front of the party (thanks for the tip, Alunis).

I hope this remains as a heated discussion at its most vicious.
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

I have to say I'd consider Hiro to be way overlevelled if he's at 15 when he leaves the Spire, since Lucia prevents you from levelling up past 14 before she's cursed. (Presumably if you reenter the Spire after the curse but before fighting the Guardian you could get further, since she wouldn't be able to cast Solar Bomb then.) I found it to be pretty tedious to level him up that far there, although I did do it once. To put it in perspective, the demo capped Hiro's level at 16 and it ended just after the Plantella fight.

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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

LunarRaptor wrote:It was a simple error in spelling his name. Lay off.
HAH! Right..











p.s. Gwen

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Alunissage
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

He made this simple spelling error ten times in two lengthy posts, even though the correct US spelling of his name was used twice in a response to his first post. With that level of frequency, and since he had clearly given a great deal of thought to at least the beginning of the game, it seemed likely that he was doing it on purpose for some unknown reason, perhaps thinking that it was the Japanese name... especially as Gwen is generally a female name, so it seemed an unlikely mistake to make (as opposed to, say, Gwynn). Unless there was an errant spell-checker involved somehow. So I inquired. Once, which hardly merits a "lay off" response; still, I had not intended to respond further. However, you, an uninvolved third party, chose to bring it up again, in a waste-of-space post solely to convey the insulting implication that I raise these questions for no reason but to lay into people. Which I do not.
LunarRaptor wrote:I'm just thankful no treasure chest is off limits to us in this game
I've been puzzling over this. What are you referring to?

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phyco126
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by phyco126 »

Perhaps he meant that there are no hidden treasure chests that remain locked?
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Werefrog »

I interpreted that the same way for some reason, Phyco.

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Alunissage
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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

Are there in other games? (Edit: I mean, other Lunar games.)

The only other thing I could think of was the unused items in EB's inventory, but they're not actually in chests. But I thought maybe I had forgotten some weirdness in an earlier game. Goodness knows I don't know all of them.

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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by Blue_Sycro »

In SSSC there are locked chests that you can't open until you get the Thieves' Crest or whatever it's called from Damon.

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Re: A very frustrating game...and for the wrong reasons. A rant.

Post by LunarRaptor »

That's what I was referring to, alright. I never did figure out the point to having certain treasure chests locked up until later in the game (not even towards the end, just about 1/3 through). It just seemed pointless.

A proper response to your unanswered post is coming, Alunis. I had typed it all up before, but the computer kicked me off the internet right when I was going to post it. Now I have to start all over again. :cry: My only consolation is that I got part of it done earlier, so I don't have to do the whole thing over again (just most of it).
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