A very huge problem!!

KingOfFlyingCats · Post by **KingOfFlyingCats** » Tue May 30, 2006 5:59 am

I also fail to see how buying a used copy from a person on eBay will support Lunar. Do they send a portion of their money to the people at... Working Designs wasn't it? If it will help the creators of Lunar profit to buy a used copy off eBay then by all means it's stealing and is wrong. Otherwise, it's just illegal for some lame reason.

When the games become completely remade in their original form or are available for purchase from the actual game distributors (put back in print) then it will also be stealing and wrong. Otherwise, I understand that it's taboo, but it doesn't strike me as wrong.

Post by **Sonic#** » Tue May 30, 2006 12:12 pm

KingOfFlyingCats wrote:I also fail to see how buying a used copy from a person on eBay will support Lunar. Do they send a portion of their money to the people at... Working Designs wasn't it? If it will help the creators of Lunar profit to buy a used copy off eBay then by all means it's stealing and is wrong. Otherwise, it's just illegal for some lame reason.

When the games become completely remade in their original form or are available for purchase from the actual game distributors (put back in print) then it will also be stealing and wrong. Otherwise, I understand that it's taboo, but it doesn't strike me as wrong.

I don't see how the whole used game market doesn't make sense. No, they don't send any payment to Working Designs (which is now defunct) or Gamearts when they sell it.

But it's like this. They have the game, and they can sell it if they want to. A legal copy of the game is available for purchase. To get the game for free in this case is still illegal (and I'd argue that it's wrong as well). The source of the game, whether it's the manufacturer, a game store, a store like Wal-mart or Target, or an affluent Ebay seller, is irrelevant. It is the physical game itself that matters, and who owns it legally. It is the company's decision if they decide not to sell it any longer, and thus decide not to directly profit off of their creation. I'm sure they don't condone piracy when they do this, and yet you say that they only have "lame reasons" in this case against illegality. Why?

Again, the game is the basic unit for purchase. You're supporting Lunar by playing the game, and having a (hopefully positive) experience! You're supporting it by talking about it, by enjoying it, by propogating its memory, and by selling it again, if you choose.

Except in the most rarefied categories (which Kizyr has gone over before), to skip the buying is to be a thief. There's no moral justification around that. It's a slap in the face to all those who bought it the legal way, and all those who sell it.

And I've never bought a game to support a company.

I buy a game to play a game.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Tue May 30, 2006 5:16 pm

Okay, I just did a search on Gamestop to see if there were any copies of EB in my area, and I would have to travel 48 miles to purchase it. Should I have to do this? With the price of gas the way it is? Let's say that I'm 14, and my parents don't want to drive me there. Then what?

I guess I could buy it on eBay. But let's suppose that my parents don't want me to buy stuff off the Internet (which back when I was 14 my parents wouldn't allow me to buy anything off the Internet). Then is it okay to use piracy?

There are situations where piracy is legitimate (for example, an adventure game that costs 90 dollars on eBay and is now 17 years old). We're probably getting to the point of legitimacy with PSX games since Ebgames will stop purchasing those games (thus making them incredibly rare [I couldn't even find a copy of Final Fantasy 7 for a friend when she told me that she wanted to try RPGs]).

Keep in mind that I own all of my game legally (well, two of my games are questionable. According to the site which seemed legit, the games were freeware, but I'm not so sure anymore.) However, I'm not going to feel like I've been slapped in the face by those who do illegally download games. Heck, the main reason I purchased these games was that I feel that playing console games on the PC ruins them. Another reason that I don't feel insulted was that I realize the purchasing atmosphere was different when I bought these games. It's a lot harder to find many games when compared to when I purchased them just 3-5 years ago.

Also, I'm getting tired of collecting games. I remember all the work it took my to track a game like Alundra or Lufia or any of my other games, and I don't feel like doing this again. Nor do I feel like making other people go through this.

And the reason why it's illegal to pirate games even when they don't still make the games is that the companies wish to make a profit from it some day through ports or remakes. In the meanwhile, the fans can't play the games, and support for the games begins to decrease since it's so hard to play.

Also, on the argument about taking money from the used game store, let's just say that by getting my game somewhere else I wouldn't lose any sleep. I had some really negative experiences at used game stores when I was younger. I would go as far as to say that these stores cheated me.

Post by **Alunissage** » Tue May 30, 2006 7:51 pm

Werefrog wrote:Okay, I just did a search on Gamestop to see if there were any copies of EB in my area, and I would have to travel 48 miles to purchase it. Should I have to do this? With the price of gas the way it is? Let's say that I'm 14, and my parents don't want to drive me there. Then what?

I guess I could buy it on eBay. But let's suppose that my parents don't want me to buy stuff off the Internet (which back when I was 14 my parents wouldn't allow me to buy anything off the Internet). Then is it okay to use piracy?

No. If you don't have the resources to get it then you live without it, end of story; you are not entitled to it. That's the way life is, fair or not. Being 14 is not an excuse.

That's not to say that it's completely logical. But quit rationalizing and face up to reality. If you pirate it's because you want something you don't have the right to own, not because they're not making money off it any more or you're poor or young or whatever so it's all right. It's not.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Tue May 30, 2006 8:13 pm

I don't pirate, but I can see why people do. And I can see that there are some situations where it's okay. With the creation of iTunes, it has become much harder to justify pirating music. And when Nintendo's virtual console comes out it will be nearly impossible to justify pirating most of the games that I would consider pirating.

I think classic games should be open to more people. Classic gaming shouldn't just be an elite club. There are four ways to make gaming more open. 1) The companies can physically re-release the games 2) The companies can release them for sale on sites like download.com or something like Nintendo's virtual console. 3) The games can be moved into the public domain. 4) People can pirate.

Piracy is the only option we are given. And personally, I think this sucks. I would love to buy old games from download.com. Or pay 20 dollars for a compilation disc.

As much as I hate piracy for me personally to use, I view this to be better than classic gaming fandoms becoming an elite club. If only the elites are playing and talking about the old games, the fandoms will eventually dry up and there will be no hope of successful sequels.

phyco126 · Post by **phyco126** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:08 pm

Werefrog wrote:Okay, I just did a search on Gamestop to see if there were any copies of EB in my area, and I would have to travel 48 miles to purchase it. Should I have to do this? With the price of gas the way it is? Let's say that I'm 14, and my parents don't want to drive me there. Then what?

I guess I could buy it on eBay. But let's suppose that my parents don't want me to buy stuff off the Internet (which back when I was 14 my parents wouldn't allow me to buy anything off the Internet). Then is it okay to use piracy?

No, it isn't. That's like saying that because you ran out of food and didn't want to drive the 30 miles to the nearest store to spend $200 on groceries you are going to steal your neighbors food because you didn't want to waste gas on food (which for those who live on their own know food can be very expensive if you arn't careful.)

Werefrog wrote:We're probably getting to the point of legitimacy with PSX games since Ebgames will stop purchasing those games (thus making them incredibly rare [I couldn't even find a copy of Final Fantasy 7 for a friend when she told me that she wanted to try RPGs]).

How is that possible? In a Buy Sell Trade store here they stopped accepting FF7 as trade or to buy, because they had about 2 dozen copies of used FF7 games, because everyone got tired and traded them off for other games.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:31 am

phyco126 wrote:How is that possible? In a Buy Sell Trade store here they stopped accepting FF7 as trade or to buy, because they had about 2 dozen copies of used FF7 games, because everyone got tired and traded them off for other games.

I'm sure that it's somewhere in "my" city (by that I mean the city that is 25 miles away and is the closest place to buy games). I just checked one mall when we were already there for a movie or something.

Here's a good article about why abandonware should become freeware.

http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/i ... tures/160/

On a semi-related note, I sent lucas-arts an email about how they should do something to make their games easier to find. I just received a response saying that they forwarded it to their marketing team. I really didn't think they would even read it.

The scarcity of classic games will eventually kill gaming.

phyco126 · Post by **phyco126** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:38 am

Well, living out of the way of a major city can make it harder to find what you are looking for. Do you live in a smaller town near a larger city? Or are you living in a rural part of the county 25 miles away from the nearest city? In either case, a phone book can help located a gaming place closer to you, and even give them a call to see if they carry what you are looking for, thus saving you a lot of time and gas looking for something that you may not find.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:43 am

phyco126 wrote:Well, living out of the way of a major city can make it harder to find what you are looking for. Do you live in a smaller town near a larger city? Or are you living in a rural part of the county 25 miles away from the nearest city? In either case, a phone book can help located a gaming place closer to you, and even give them a call to see if they carry what you are looking for, thus saving you a lot of time and gas looking for something that you may not find.

Well, the whole gas thing was only hypothetical for me in this case since I bought Lunar EB Complete when it came out. I live in a rural area near to a larger (by mid-western standards) city (Cincy). But nah, the closest non-Wal-Mart gaming store is 25 miles away. I'm used to it by now.

KingOfFlyingCats · Post by **KingOfFlyingCats** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:45 am

Alright, I'm too lazy to bother quoting so I'll reply in sections.

First, to Alunissage, since you hold to this belief that lacking the resources to obtain something means you are not entitled to it does that mean you believe in survival of the fittest? That's what it sounds like and that would imply that because I am (or may be) able to, I have every right to bust into a person's house, kill them, rape their wife/daughter/son/pet/live-in maid, and take all of their stuff so long as I have that ability and the resources to do so. Also, he lacked the resources to defend himself and therefore no one in his family were entitled to the things I took. I've never met anyone who agreed with a philosophy like this so wholeheartedly, but it's good to know you're there.

Now that the we've gotten from gaming to a horribly different extreme, let's examine the food analogy. If the world is running out of food, and the only store is 200 miles and the food costs $200 dollars a pound, that doesn't give a man the right to take it by force no matter what alunissage may be hinting at. Now, let's assume instead that the situation is more accurate, or even accurate at all. Neartest store is 200 miles, cost is $200 a pound, and my neighbor will sell me his food for an exhorbitant price. I however, choose instead to grow my own food. By the logic I am presented, I am therefore stealing by taking away the money he could make by selling me the food for more than its actual practical worth.

I belive that covers a lot. Maybe not all and I've argued enough to know opinions won't change no matter how logical an argument is made. Still, I've made my point.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:12 am

You went a bit far on that last post. Alunissage, was not suggesting social Darwinism to the extreme as you interpretted it. She was merely saying that if you don't have the resources, you shouldn't be able to buy the game This is capitalism. However, since merchants on eBay now have a monopoly, the system is broken. This system is making it so only the elite can know the history of gaming. If the only two options are leaving the history of gaming solely in the hands of the elite or piracy, I'd prefer piracy.

Post by **Kizyr** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:39 am

Y'all are talking about video games. Not food, not clothing.

All the stuff about being 'entitled' to it is ridiculous. It's not the same as food, so it's rather silly to make that kind of comparison. If you're starving and have nothing, you still deserve dignity and somewere to turn for perhaps a helping hand, hot meal, and a decent shelter, not for a decade old Sega CD game.

I'm amazed that this discussion has gotten so thorough. There's really not a whole lot to discuss. If you want to download games, why is justifying it such a big deal? Why all this discussion about being 'entitled' to a certain form of entertainment? KF

phyco126 · Post by **phyco126** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:15 am

My final thought on the matter is if you are going to pirate, don't try to justify it. Just do it silently instead of trying to justify it. If one wants to pirate, fine, but they do it at their own risk. No need to bring us into this then try and justify it.

How's that? I think it's a sound piece of advice.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:59 pm

Err... something weird happened the first time I tried to post.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:00 pm

phyco126 wrote:My final thought on the matter is if you are going to pirate, don't try to justify it. Just do it silently instead of trying to justify it. If one wants to pirate, fine, but they do it at their own risk. No need to bring us into this then try and justify it.

How's that? I think it's a sound piece of advice.

I don't pirate. Just there is definitely a problem in the gaming industry, and I realize that pirating is the only solution the gaming industry has provided us.

I would gladly pay 5-10 dollars (depending on game) for old games on download.com. But I'm not given that option.

And Kizyr, you're right. Not everyone is entitled to games. You should have to pay to play On the other hand, classic games are part of our history. And as such, they should be widely available. They shouldn't just be open to the elite who have the money.

And since it's mostly RPGs (and adventure games) that have this problem, RPGs will be hit the hardest.

Also, Kizyr, video games are different from other forms of media. I can find nearly any classic movie that I want on amazon for no more than 20 dollars. I can find nearly any classic book that I want on amazon in paperback for dirt cheap. I haven't checked, but I'm guessing music would be the same. Video games are different. If I want a classic game, I have to go to hell and back to locate it. THEN, I have to pay an insane price comparable to what it used to cost when it was NEW. That's why this discussion has become so thorough. Video games are different. I want to solve this problem in a legal way, but I don't have the resources to create a website with legal downloads for a small price. So I guess I'll just have to keep dreaming and arguing this out online. There is a problem in gaming. It's not black and white.

Agawa · Post by **Agawa** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:13 pm

Werefrog wrote:
phyco126 wrote:My final thought on the matter is if you are going to pirate, don't try to justify it. Just do it silently instead of trying to justify it. If one wants to pirate, fine, but they do it at their own risk. No need to bring us into this then try and justify it.

How's that? I think it's a sound piece of advice.

I don't pirate. Just there is definitely a problem in the gaming industry, and I realize that pirating is the only solution the gaming industry has provided us.

Well, playing video games is not exactly a human right. I'm sure people can deal with them, find other sorts of entertainment, make a special trip...etc. And if not? Well, too bad. It's not like I care if anyone pirates, but it they do they could at least have the courtesy not to ask for them on a message board that clearly is against such things.

Although, while I don't think the lack of a downloading service makes ROMs any more legal, it certainly would be a good idea. I know I'd pitch in for some old Sierra/LucaArts games.

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:26 pm

Yes, I realize that video games are not an inherent right. But I also believe that it's important that new gamers play the classics. It's the same concept behind why people need to study history. We learn from the past. We see how far we have progressed in some areas, and the areas that are now lacking.

I also realize that the lack of downloadable services doesn't make it legal. But in my mind, it makes it far more justifiable. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it's not right. My only reason currently for not being a pirate is not a moral objection. Rather it is a fear of the legal consequences.

Post by **Kizyr** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:01 pm

Werefrog wrote:And Kizyr, you're right. Not everyone is entitled to games. You should have to pay to play On the other hand, classic games are part of our history. And as such, they should be widely available. They shouldn't just be open to the elite who have the money.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer than I already have that I don't care about whatever justifications you have. Just don't cloak your argument in the language of being entitled to something that's a form of entertainment.

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said thus far. But I view it as a lack of judgment or foresight on the part of the companies that own the rights to these games, not some sort of attack on my rights or liberties, or some way to maintain a group of elite "classic" gamers. KF

KingOfFlyingCats · Post by **KingOfFlyingCats** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:39 pm

Firstly, I would like to apolagize...

I ealize I went a bit far on my response to Alunissage's commentary. I had a bad day yesterday and the comment hit kind of a sore spot. In a more mature response though, the ability to pirate successfully could vey well be considered having the resources to obtain the object.

Now, I believe it is time for this debate to come to a close before anybody (particularly myself, since i know my weakness) begins acting immature or younger than they actually are.

(On a final note, does anyone own a copy of Lunar: EB that I could borrow? I have games and such to put up for collateral if trust is an issue.)

Werefrog · Post by **Werefrog** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:47 pm

Kizyr wrote:I don't know if I can make it any clearer than I already have that I don't care about whatever justifications you have. Just don't cloak your argument in the language of being entitled to something that's a form of entertainment.

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said thus far. But I view it as a lack of judgment or foresight on the part of the companies that own the rights to these games, not some sort of attack on my rights or liberties, or some way to maintain a group of elite "classic" gamers. KF

I don't think that I once said that we are entitled to these games. I said that we are entitled to easy access to these games. It's the same way that people are not entitled to a copy of Of Mice and Men or the Bible.

I also don't think I made my point about the elite gamers clear enough. The game companies aren't maintaining this group on puropse. It's just a side effect of the current policies. This elite group will ultimately be detrimental to the state of gaming since only the elites will be interested in new entries to a popular classic series since only a small group of elites/people who bought the game when it first came out. The face of Role-playing games has changed in the last few years. There are many role-playing gamers that weren't here 6 years ago. I would say the majority of RPGers weren't playing RPGs in the SNES era. These people won't play new entries in the classic RPG series without first playing the old games in the series. Would the new Star Wars trilogy have been popular if no one was able to see the original movies? No, I don't think it would have been. In fact, if I remember correctly the old movies were re-released before the Phantom Menace came out. I hadn't seen Star Wars until the re-release. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have seen The Phantom Menace if not for the re-release.

I fear that series like Earthbound and Lunar and Lufia and Monkey Island will die without more people who have actually played the games.

Lunar Threads

A very huge problem!!

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