Lunar and religion

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Benevolent_Ghaleon
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Lunar and religion

Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

I understand this is a touchy subject and ignorant trolling will result in complaints.

Anyone can see quite plainly that Lunar has a lot of religion involved in it and it is certainly no surprise. Your world view greatly changes the way you live your life and perceive the world around you so it's only natural that its influence would show itself through your works.

How do each of you feel about the way Lunar preaches to us on this subject and what are your interpretations of the things said and done?

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Post by phyco126 »

Personally, I think Lunar's religion is rather great. No sacrifices, no need to kill infedals, nothing but love and and enjoyment from the gods. 'Nuff said.
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Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

I'd like some depth to this thread.

I mean things like Luna giving up her immortality and ending the cycle of Althena. Think about that? why would that be in the story if the writer didn't have good reasonings with symbolism behind it? I assure you that this took place at the very least on a subconscious level.

Is this their means of saying that humanity does not need a God? Could Lunar be speaking toward or against atheism?

I don't know.

Althena's chosen was once referred to as Althena's Cult. WD translated both versions of the game, i believe. Could there have been reasons why the wording changed in the remake? perhaps the creator grew or lessened in his faith or lack thereof. There's no knowing but i find it very fun to debate it and see what, if any, messages were intended for the gamers and how were we supposed to interpret them?

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Post by Kizyr »

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:Althena's chosen was once referred to as Althena's Cult. WD translated both versions of the game, i believe. Could there have been reasons why the wording changed in the remake? perhaps the creator grew or lessened in his faith or lack thereof.
Nope. The creator (Kei Shigema et al) used the same word in the original and remake. The translation is the only thing that changed.

The Chosen is more accurate. The original word didn't have the immediate negative connotations of a "Cult". KF
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Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

Kizyr wrote:
Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:Althena's chosen was once referred to as Althena's Cult. WD translated both versions of the game, i believe. Could there have been reasons why the wording changed in the remake? perhaps the creator grew or lessened in his faith or lack thereof.
Nope. The creator (Kei Shigema et al) used the same word in the original and remake. The translation is the only thing that changed.

The Chosen is more accurate. The original word didn't have the immediate negative connotations of a "Cult". KF
Considering the difficulty and the changes that are somewhat inevitable in a translation, surely some of the translators views will come through mixed with the original creators.

Perhaps his world view changed and he went from PREFERRING a word with a more negative connotation to choosing one that showed them in a more positive light.

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Post by Kizyr »

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:Perhaps his world view changed and he went from PREFERRING a word with a more negative connotation to choosing one that showed them in a more positive light.
That point makes absolutely no sense.

Japanese EB: アルテナ団
American EB: Althena's Cult

Japanese EBC: アルテナ団
American EBC: Althena's Chosen

There's nothing that changed in the Japanese remake that was derived from the text of the American translation, with regards to Eternal Blue. The most that happened was that Game Arts really liked Working Designs' use of Alex's harp at the end of TSS and used it in SSS. But regarding how they translated text, there were a number of minor storyline alterations in the US translation of Eternal Blue, and none of them filtered over into the Japanese end.

The only point you could possibly make is that the translators felt that Chosen was a more accurate term. KF
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Post by ilovemyguitar »

I always thought Luna's storyline had heavy undertones paralleling Christian mythology. She was a diety born in human form, she underwent great tribulation, and eventually made a great sacrifice for the betterment of all humanity. Of course they went and screwed this all up with the PSX remake, changing the story so that the sacrifice of Althena's power was made prior to Luna's lifetime... but whatever.
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Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

Kizyr wrote: The only point you could possibly make is that the translators felt that Chosen was a more accurate term. KF
What i'm getting at is, if indeed he felt it a more accurate term, that his opinion is likely determined by his world view and ideals and that his decision to make the change could be interpretted as his decision to put his views out to the world with subtlety.

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Post by ilovemyguitar »

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:
Kizyr wrote: The only point you could possibly make is that the translators felt that Chosen was a more accurate term. KF
What i'm getting at is, if indeed he felt it a more accurate term, that his opinion is likely determined by his world view and ideals and that his decision to make the change could be interpretted as his decision to put his views out to the world with subtlety.
Actually, I'm guessing that this was more of a storytelling decision than a reflection of anyone's religious beliefs. Changing the title of the group from Althena's Cult to Althena's Chosen makes it less obvious from the beginning of the game that the group is corrupt.
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Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

ilovemyguitar wrote:I always thought Luna's storyline had heavy undertones paralleling Christian mythology. She was a diety born in human form, she underwent great tribulation, and eventually made a great sacrifice for the betterment of all humanity. Of course they went and screwed this all up with the PSX remake, changing the story so that the sacrifice of Althena's power was made prior to Luna's lifetime... but whatever.
See, that's what i find somewhat odd. They start with all of that and it almost seems in favor of religion but Luna gives up immortality and they began to go on about the power of humanity.

I'm not sure how i'd view the ratio but it doesn't currently seem tipped toward either side.

Were any of the creators or translators ever interviewed on this subject?

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Post by ilovemyguitar »

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:
ilovemyguitar wrote:I always thought Luna's storyline had heavy undertones paralleling Christian mythology. She was a diety born in human form, she underwent great tribulation, and eventually made a great sacrifice for the betterment of all humanity. Of course they went and screwed this all up with the PSX remake, changing the story so that the sacrifice of Althena's power was made prior to Luna's lifetime... but whatever.
See, that's what i find somewhat odd. They start with all of that and it almost seems in favor of religion but Luna gives up immortality and they began to go on about the power of humanity.

I'm not sure how i'd view the ratio but it doesn't currently seem tipped toward either side.

Were any of the creators or translators ever interviewed on this subject?
One thing that I think is important to note is that the Church of Althena seems to continue to exist in the epilogue of Lunar 2, after it's revealed that Althena is dead and that the organization's leaders had been corrupt individuals. The church in its new form seems very similar to the Christian church today; the basic m.o. of the organization is now recognizing the purpose of Althena's sacrifice, and attempting to live up to Althena's ideals in this regard. This all seems like a very pro-religious statement.
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Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

To me, it seems to also speak of religion in how many people exploit it for personal gain but that to its very core, religion is good.


But could the "death" of Althena and the continued church mean that they believe that the ideals and morals given by religion are often good but God, on the whole, is a bad thing for humanity to believe?

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Post by ilovemyguitar »

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:To me, it seems to also speak of religion in how many people exploit it for personal gain but that to its very core, religion is good.


But could the "death" of Althena and the continued church mean that they believe that the ideals and morals given by religion are often good but God, on the whole, is a bad thing for humanity to believe?
I really, really like that interpretation, mostly because it fits so well with my own personal beliefs. It also adds a different aspect of Althena's character that I'd never given much thought to before: philosopher.
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Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

ilovemyguitar wrote:
Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:To me, it seems to also speak of religion in how many people exploit it for personal gain but that to its very core, religion is good.


But could the "death" of Althena and the continued church mean that they believe that the ideals and morals given by religion are often good but God, on the whole, is a bad thing for humanity to believe?
I really, really like that interpretation, mostly because it fits so well with my own personal beliefs. It also adds a different aspect of Althena's character that I'd never given much thought to before: philosopher.
I'm sure my motivation, at least subconsciously, were to help reinforce my beliefs. These actions in themselves expose my insecurities. I have tried to not believe in God and I just couldn't.

This is quite an intruiging subject, especially coming from a video game of the early 90's, isn't it?

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Post by ilovemyguitar »

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:
ilovemyguitar wrote:
Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:To me, it seems to also speak of religion in how many people exploit it for personal gain but that to its very core, religion is good.


But could the "death" of Althena and the continued church mean that they believe that the ideals and morals given by religion are often good but God, on the whole, is a bad thing for humanity to believe?
I really, really like that interpretation, mostly because it fits so well with my own personal beliefs. It also adds a different aspect of Althena's character that I'd never given much thought to before: philosopher.
I'm sure my motivation, at least subconsciously, were to help reinforce my beliefs. These actions in themselves expose my insecurities. I have tried to not believe in God and I just couldn't.

This is quite an intruiging subject, especially coming from a video game of the early 90's, isn't it?
You're very right there, haha. But hey, the fact that we're sitting here talking about it now is a big testament to how well-written it was in the first place.

When I was a confused teenager I tried to do the religious thing, but no matter how many times I went to church I could never convince myself to actually believe in a higher being watching over us. Actually, going to church helped me come to the conclusion that atheism is the way to go, haha. I bet they hadn't planned on THAT happening in those silly church youth group meetings.
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Post by Aaron »

I think...it's just a good story but...

as for the christian part in it...I don't see it...reincarnation is a common eastern religious theme.

Luna is interesting in that she is obviously the symbolic god in the game. and the introduction to zophar...makes it seem even more like there is a heaven and hell. Yet, in lunar there doesn't seem to be the existence of an afterlife until you get into eb and the psx remakes.

Luna seems to be the "traditional" pagan idea for a god, requiring humanity and...beastmenity...er...bad term to protect her from her own creation and herself. She even give a special individual the power to control the 4 dragons to be the bodyguard. She also reminds me of a failed "Christ" figure.

I really dont see much Christianity in it. it seems to me that the ultimate lesson in Lunar is that you need to look to yourselves for the answers and solutions to your problems. ANd hopefully you'll have some friends to help you along the way.

Lucia I think is really interesting. As she has the mentality that ALthena can and will be all powerful. yet as she begins to become more "human" she realizes that no...she isn't that strong. In a way I think Lucia is a lot like the player of the game.

But yeah...I feel that what is trying to be said here is God has no place in Lunar. And if hte person playing agrees then you could apply that to life...which i tihnk would be really stupid as afterall it is just a game. And if u think that Dragon Song is part of the lunar "canon" then luna seems to be a repeating event.

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Post by ilovemyguitar »

*Spoilers for Lunar: Dragon Song are in this post*

Well first, I'm going to say that I didn't come to any conclusions as to what my religious beliefs are through playing any video games. I'm just saying that the message preached in the game is very closely aligned with what my beliefs already are.

As for eastern religions, the Buddhist concept of reincarnation is part of a greater process called Samsara, which involves sort of a cyle of constant death and life. This involves the belief that the soul is closely tied to Karma, which is determined by a person's actions in life. A person's Karma determines how a person will be reborn in successive lifetimes, hopefully each time learning how to be a better person, until they achieve a state of complete enlightenment, often called Nirvana, at which point they go on to exist in a perfectly blissful state, apart from the cyle of life and death (and apart from the concept of "self" entirely). The problem with applying this concept to Althena's story is that we don't know much of anything about her human incarnations prior to her life as Luna. Even if we do include Dragon Song as part of the canonical continuity of Lunar, Lucia as a human doesn't do much of anything in this game, and we aren't given much of an opportunity to understand much of her character, as halfway through the game she is reawakened as Althena, and Lucia stops existing as a sentient being up until the last 30 seconds of the game. However, it is said in TSS that during past human incarnations, she has come to usher in an era of peace and love on Lunar, thus implying that she doesn't come as a work in progress, but as a finished product to lead the people.

Honestly, while the literal continuity of Lunar 1 and Lunar 2 is obviously tied together, the similarities to Christian mythology become quite pronounced when the two are viewed separately. In Lunar 1, Luna is presented as a Christ-like figure who is a deity reborn in human form. In Lunar 2, it is Lucia who is the Christ figure. While her existence is never fully explained, it's not too far of a stretch to imagine her as a daughter of some sort to Althena, or perhaps even a Goddess in her own right, and she comes to Lunar to liberate the people from a false deity.

And in a more blatant parallel in Lucia's story to Christian mythology, she is imprisoned by Zophar at the end of the game with her arms straight out to her sides, as if she were being crucified:

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And then, after the party has regrouped in Vane, it is 3 days later that they leave for Zophar's domain to rescue Lucia, the amount of time between Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection:

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If that doesn't point to a similarity to Christianity, I don't know what does.
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Post by Alunissage »

I don't think the three days thing is significant at all. It's just a convenient time period.

Nevertheless, it may be time for some folks to read the history of ridiculous religious symbolism in Japanese games to get a sense of how bizarre games borrowing Christian referents can get (and how futile it can be to search for any significance to it).

I should perhaps mention that I really hated the pseudo-Christian vibe thrown into SSSC (which I played before EB, otherwise I would've hated it in EB first) with the cathedral and all compared to the austere, remote, otherworldly treatment of Althena's shrines and priestesses in TSS. I think this change severely impaired the atmosphere of the later games in the series, and it's a major reason why TSS is my favorite.
Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:What i'm getting at is, if indeed he felt it a more accurate term, that his opinion is likely determined by his world view and ideals and that his decision to make the change could be interpretted as his decision to put his views out to the world with subtlety.
No. Just...no. It's strictly a storytelling concern. There are a few other minor changes to make things flow more naturally as well.

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Post by Kizyr »

Nevertheless, it may be time for some folks to read the history of ridiculous religious symbolism in Japanese games to get a sense of how bizarre games borrowing Christian referents can get (and how futile it can be to search for any significance to it).
Oh there's so much in the Lunar series, it all depends on how someone wants to take it in.

You have Althena, who seems to take a lot from the ancient Greco-Roman pagan tradition. Her name's just one letter off from Athena (same with the Japanese word), and she represents "love and beauty", although that was kind of Aphrodite's domain.

Then you have Zophar. The name incidentally is off the Old Testament (Zophar was one of Job's friends in the Book of Job, although the name is where the similarity ends). His multi-armed appearance, off-color skin, and focus on destruction sound like his concept is borrowed from the Hindu god of destruction, Shiva. The big difference, though, is that Zophar's power comes from the darkness in humanity's heart, and he's all evil and bent on recreating the world in his image; Shiva isn't evil, just one part of an overall process of death-and-rebirth (Zophar's pointing out that there can be no new creation without first destroying the old is similar in that respect). So some similarities are there, but the idea of Shiva rising out of darkness and wanting to recreate the world in his own image is plain silly.

With Lunar: Dragon Song, I think the writers got tired of picking names for everyone except the protagonists, and decided to just flip through the Old Testament and pick names at random. Hence why you have Malachi, Ezekiel, Jude, Noah, Zachariah, Hagar, Sarah, etc. etc..

So yeah, there are similarities, and references taken from things here and there. But I wouldn't read too seriously into them. Part of creating any fictitious world is to use certain inspirations from reality. KF
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Post by GhaleonOne »

Which reminds me to ask you Kiz, were there quite a bit of references to "Son of Adam" and "Daughter of Eve" in any of the four main Lunar games (or WS/MS for that matter)? There were in Legend and Genesis/Dragon Song, but I'm pretty sure Vic said they nixed that verbage in the translations of the other Lunar titles. Might be interesting to know if those phrases were used in TSS specifically, considering it's different religious feel, as Alunissage said.
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