GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

This board is for general discussion of Lunar. Especially things such as Lunar merchandise, general discussions about the story that span more than one game, etc.
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Arlia
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GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:59 pm

[*]----------
Last edited by Arlia on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby jay_are » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:41 am

That is so beautiful : D : D
It must have been fun owning all that!
I am so sad about the having to sell stuff part, but i wish you good luck!!
Question: Why no Working Designs stuff? x)

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Temzin » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:12 am

Handsome line-up! You might enjoy adding the marvelously drawn Lunar 2 Asuka Comics DX comic illustrated by Kaori Naruse. It was always quite cheap, like around 700Y, but it's out of stock in most places now. I'm sure it pops up from time to time, though. This reminds me how I always meant to play Grandia 1.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Leo » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:03 am

jay_are wrote:That is so beautiful : D : D
It must have been fun owning all that!
I am so sad about the having to sell stuff part, but i wish you good luck!!
Question: Why no Working Designs stuff? x)


I was gonna ask the same question. Japanese purist or something? I've never known of a translation company to pour more love into their work. Considering how glaringly obvious it was that Grandia was poorly translated, I find the vemon towards WD surprising.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:02 am

Yes, I know; it's awkward that I'd dislike the company that gave the US the game. I guess I just wish someone else had done it, or that they'd stayed a little more on script with the whole process.

A game is more than it's translation. It's also artwork, and music, and you know, game play. Grandia had relatively bad voice acting, but I've heard much, much, worse, and some of the voice acting in Lunar is cheesy, too. I guess I prefer a overly simple, possibly bad, translation to one ruined by putting too much of themselves into it. Which one is really worse, at the end of the day? It's only a matter of preference, and you just asked about mine:

Here's a list, it's just easier that way:

-I'm hard-pressed to find Game Arts anywhere on the packaging, but WD logo is everywhere. A lot of import publishers do this. I haven't played too much X-Seed, and I'm worried they might be going down the same path, but they put GA on the Harmony packaging.

-WD credits always come first, and GA, Kadokawa, etc, are always an afterthought. Except when they plaster their name on it, again, at the very end of the game.

-Victor won't shut up about himself. To call himself the director in the credits first thing, and then immediately list himself as one of the translators, at the top of a list of names, is annoying to me. Then he talks about the game like he was there, in Japan, helping them make it. A lot of frivolous things are said in the Making of Video, and the video itself can be seen as self-serving.

-The nasty sense of humor in some of the games. Vanguard Bandits ..."Depends with joy, I have filled" Wow. I stopped playing after that. Oh, and you don't present a youngster with sex jokes, ever. That's not acceptable to me. Put whatever you want on the box, "suggestive themes", whatever, but can you think of anything more horrible then presenting sex to a kid while they're just trying to play a cartoon-looking video game? There was nothing mature about the story, so sex scenes or anything. That didn't need to be in there. If you're not mature enough to not ruin someone else's project, you have no business in the business. (I have no kids. I'm only defending my 15 year old self, who was very offended and almost stopped playing because of it. I don't expect anyone to care, but, you did ask.)

-This one might get me in a lot of trouble: anachronisms. In other words, pop culture references. I want to forget about the real world when I play a game, not be forced into remembering that I'm just playing a game, every time I talk to an NPC.

-I hate John Truit's voice. Anything else would have been better, in my opinion- absolutely anything. Why would anyone suddenly start speaking like that, for any reason? No one but WD would have come up with that voice.

-They never ran a good business. They're bankrupt, now.

I don't know why, but everything most people like about WD, and the Lunar games, I dislike. That's why I've posted here so little. I'm sure they worked really hard, but they worked really hard doing something bad with something good.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Alunissage » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:17 am

Nice. I have the Luna cup, but not the Lucia one. I think that's the only thing you have that I don't except for that particular Nall. And that magazine, of course.

I have highly mixed feelings on WD, with a good deal more personal experience than most, so I'm going to stay out of that one. I feel I should note that one of the bromide cards that came with the MPEG Saturn game refers to Jess spending time in Kyle's bed. I don't like that any more than I like the sex jokes in the NA games, but I have to note that it's there.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Leo » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:28 am

Arlia wrote:Yes, I know; it's awkward that I'd dislike the company that gave the US the game. I guess I just wish someone else had done it, or that they'd stayed a little more on script with the whole process.

A game is more than it's translation. It's also artwork, and music, and you know, game play. Grandia had relatively bad voice acting, but I've heard much, much, worse, and some of the voice acting in Lunar is cheesy, too. I guess I prefer a overly simple, possibly bad, translation to one ruined by putting too much of themselves into it. Which one is really worse, at the end of the day? It's only a matter of preference, and you just asked about mine:

Here's a list, it's just easier that way:

-I'm hard-pressed to find Game Arts anywhere on the packaging, but WD logo is everywhere. A lot of import publishers do this. I haven't played too much X-Seed, and I'm worried they might be going down the same path, but they put GA on the Harmony packaging.

-WD credits always come first, and GA, Kadokawa, etc, are always an afterthought. Except when they plaster their name on it, again, at the very end of the game.

-Victor won't shut up about himself. To call himself the director in the credits first thing, and then immediately list himself as one of the translators, at the top of a list of names, is annoying to me. Then he talks about the game like he was there, in Japan, helping them make it. A lot of frivolous things are said in the Making of Video, and the video itself can be seen as self-serving.

-The nasty sense of humor in some of the games. Vanguard Bandits ..."Depends with joy, I have filled" Wow. I stopped playing after that. Oh, and you don't present a youngster with sex jokes, ever. That's not acceptable to me. Put whatever you want on the box, "suggestive themes", whatever, but can you think of anything more horrible then presenting sex to a kid while they're just trying to play a cartoon-looking video game? There was nothing mature about the story, so sex scenes or anything. That didn't need to be in there. If you're not mature enough to not ruin someone else's project, you have no business in the business. (I have no kids. I'm only defending my 15 year old self, who was very offended and almost stopped playing because of it. I don't expect anyone to care, but, you did ask.)

-This one might get me in a lot of trouble: anachronisms. In other words, pop culture references. I want to forget about the real world when I play a game, not be forced into remembering that I'm just playing a game, every time I talk to an NPC.

-I hate John Truit's voice. Anything else would have been better, in my opinion- absolutely anything. Why would anyone suddenly start speaking like that, for any reason? No one but WD would have come up with that voice.

-They never ran a good business. They're bankrupt, now.

I don't know why, but everything most people like about WD, and the Lunar games, I dislike. That's why I've posted here so little. I'm sure they worked really hard, but they worked really hard doing something bad with something good.


Gonna need some examples of games with worse voice acting than Grandia. If it's truly that bad, there's gotta be a lot of unintentional hilarity in there.

Import publishers gotta do all they can to get their names out there.

I'm glad I don't follow inside activities and much other than the media itself when it comes to pretty much anything. I have friends that stopped liking some bands after one of their members said something offensive about something or about a different band/singer they liked. I play games, watch movies and listen to songs. The details and dirt on how they came to be seem like none of my business.

I didn't play Vanguard Bandits but I do recall several crass jokes in Lunar and I also realize that if you ARE a child, those jokes will fly right over your head. There have been subtle sexual references in a lot of different types of media. The adults laugh or roll their eyes and the kids let it go in one ear and out of the other. I also disagree with the notion that "dirty" things aren't allowed in something simply because they're animated. And while the game is lighthearted in a lot of ways, I take issue with "nothing mature about the story". There's a lot to be learned from playing Lunar other than Nall made a beatoff joke when nobody could see anything or Kyle made a joke about cunnilingus.

I understand about the pop culture references. I enjoyed most of them but none of them bothered me like the occasional fourth wall breaking moments. Several of the pop culture references can't break the immersion if you don't catch them, though. If I had never seen Wayne's World, I wouldn't have realized a references was being mine when the gambler in Larpa said "It will be mine again. Oh yes, it will be mine!"

You hate his voice or his performance? Theatrical and hammy was what they were going for with Ghaleon. Do you speak Japanese? Did you play the originals first and identify Ghaleon as his Japanese voice actor? I don't care for his speaking voice, but I hate the idea of anyone else being Ghaleon.

I don't know a damn thing about successfully running a business or the economic and otherwise aspects that lead to Working Designs' downfall so someone else can tackle that one.

I don't think what they did was bad. I don't associate sexuality with dirtiness or wrongness and I feel that, at least on some level, those who DO feel that way are helping to hold women back. Those who are too young won't even get it and their youthful attention spans will let them drop it and move on. I feel incredibly indebted to Working Designs for bringing this story to me.

Alunissage wrote:I feel I should note that one of the bromide cards that came with the MPEG Saturn game refers to Jess spending time in Kyle's bed. I don't like that any more than I like the sex jokes in the NA games, but I have to note that it's there.


After the world is saved and you're in Meribia in the bar and Fresca asks Luna when she plans to start bearing the Dragonmaster's children and she says "Alex and I have never....", that has COMPLETE credibility. We've gotten to know Alex and Luna and that line isn't the least bit hard to believe. Kyle and Jessica, though?

Here's something the world doesn't like to acknowledge. Y'know how everyone says life is what you make it? So is sex. It's as dirty or as beautiful as you make it out to be.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:31 am

There are some good things about WD, but the bad things have always distracted me.

Leo- I'm going to play dirty with you, and tell you that while you asked for my opinion, I never asked for yours. Because I've heard it all before, and most of the time, people say, "oh, I disagree, that makes you wrong", and I'm tired of it. I'm not about to argue every point with you.

Alunissage- That Nall is actually a custom knit. I think I made a topic about it some time ago. If I were to be serious about collecting, I'd start on all of the soundtracks, and all of the guides, not to mention games, and I'm not about to go into all that. You're the undeniable queen of Lunar merchandise. I don't have much interest in Magic School merchandise, although I've played a little of it, and would like to try getting through the whole thing.
I did see that card's translation... Can't say I think that's the best tidbit they could have offered.

Temzin-Yes, I do like those books you mentioned, but all of this is from several years of convenience, not hard core searching. I might get them if I learn to read Japanese.

jay_are -Thank you, it has been fun. Maybe, someone from the staff will see the pictures, and they'll be happy that it was taken in 2015, so many years after the games came out. That's all I ever wanted, actually.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Leo » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:09 pm

Arlia wrote:There are some good things about WD, but the bad things have always distracted me.

Leo- I'm going to play dirty with you, and tell you that while you asked for my opinion, I never asked for yours. Because I've heard it all before, and most of the time, people say, "oh, I disagree, that makes you wrong", and I'm tired of it. I'm not about to argue every point with you.


And to think I expected a more in-depth conversation that would lead to a deeper understanding of your point of view. Instead you pretty much decided to be Arlia Christmas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AyX_croO5w

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby jay_are » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:53 pm

Hah, oh boy xD
That was a very interesting opinion. I could never dare to see the company in that way. And while no one asked for my opinion, I still want to say this at least for others reading:

Former Squaresoft were the best at RPGs at the time, but they didn't work for Sega. That's the competitor that WD was fighting against. Other companies weren't even good enough or still aren't. Maybe the people behind the then Dragon Warrior (Dragon Quest). I think they were a good company, and they still almost had gone bankrupt AND Squaresoft too! If it wasn't for their merge.
WD, Enix and Square, all could have been victims of bankruptcy, except WD had no one to merge with. Everyone makes bad decisions. Even GameArts. So I have no place to put WD under anyone else. :lol:
Time, space and fate progressed in such a way that it could have only went the way it did.

As for the sometimes unnecessary sex stuff in WD games, one just has to play Hyperdimension Neptunia games to come back to WD and see it as an all-sacred innocent company. XD

I completely agree with the WD logo being the only one in the front of the packaging. GameArts SHOULD be on the front cover next to WD, but it's not there. Something like that might lead people to think Working Designs worked and designed Lunar.
Oh wait, people already think that. *sigh*.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:37 pm

Leo- Not even clicking your link, it's obviously an insult. I've been through enough pointless internet arguments, all for the sake of etiquette, and now I'm just done. My goal actually isn't to be rude- I'm just too spent to give you what you want, and maybe even what you deserve out of a decent internet discussion. I'm broken. Please try and understand.

Please share your opinion, but don't expect me to full-on debate.

As for the sometimes unnecessary sex stuff in WD games, one just has to play Hyperdimension Neptunia games to come back to WD and see it as an all-sacred innocent company. XD


Hah, really? I'll have to look into it!

WD, Enix and Square, all could have been victims of bankruptcy, except WD had no one to merge with. Everyone makes bad decisions. Even GameArts. So I have no place to put WD under anyone else.


I thought they went bankrupt because they kept making poor decisions, repeatedly, and often, things like their foil or embossed special packaging didn't meet the bottom line. I've also heard that Sony made things very difficult for them, which isn't fair. All I have to go on is little bits and pieces, and I've never received a direct answer. Supposing that WD did a 180 with what they put in their games, they could have been the ultimate company. So, something I don't like about them is that they're bankrupt. (Albeit the odds of them changing were slim.)

Something like that might lead people to think Working Designs worked and designed Lunar.
Oh wait, people already think that. *sigh*.


One of my Ebay buyers complained that WD wasn't on a Japanese poster I sold him... He was worried about it being fake. '_'

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby jay_are » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:19 pm

Arlia wrote:One of my Ebay buyers complained that WD wasn't on a Japanese poster I sold him... He was worried about it being fake. '_'


HAHAHA......... holy crap. '___________________'

Arlia wrote:Hah, really? I'll have to look into it!

I want to play the games to form an opinion if I ever have nothing better to do. Buuuuuuuuuut...
I've seen some screenshots and videos about different conversations in the game. One of them was about "Big boobs are features of a goddess, and that the girl with less boobs was clearly not fit to be goddess".
Lots of silly unnecessary stuff like this.
See, at least in Lunar, it feels more natural than that. I've never seen anyone in real life brag about boob size like that.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:35 pm

"I've never seen anyone in real life brag about boob size like that."

Just cuz' you don't see it... Don't mean it don't happen.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Alunissage » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:55 am

I really don't think the fancier packaging had nearly as much to do with their going out of business as Sony did. One of their two programmers leaving just after Arc Collection was licensed didn't help. Arc and EBC would've been worked on in parallel, but instead the programmer who was going to be working on Arc got pulled to work on EBC, delaying Arc. Then Arc Collection itself being, well, a collection, threw off their cycle further, because instead of having games on staggered schedules of development, with releases happening while other games were worked on, they couldn't release the games as they were finished, so no new income. It didn't help that the Japanese developers essentially misplaced the source code for Arc III, though presumably they must've found it. (The code for Casino, the other Arc II auxiliary game, never surfaced.) Then when Arc finally was ready, Sony required that they fix a bug in Arc Arena that was only present with one model of PlayStation that made up a small percentage of consoles out there, and that pushed them back another couple of months. The final nail in the coffin was Growlanser Generations. Growlanser II and III were originally going to be released separately, but when II was about 95% done, Sony demanded they bundle them. (That wasn't even the most ridiculous demand they made regarding that series.) So again, no new release to bring in money even though the game was done a year and a half before III was.

So, yeah, probably Arc Collection wasn't a great idea, but was feasible with two programmers on board. And it pretty much had to be a collection; the reason they got the license is that they wanted to do all three games, while other localizers (no, I don't know who) only wanted Arc III. Oh, and I forgot Goemon, which was never released either; I think that was also due to code getting lost on the Japanese side. Don't remember if Sony also aggravated that situation.

I have plenty of things to criticize about WD and Victor, but at the heart of it, when there are no releases there are no income streams, and many factors delaying or preventing releases were not things Victor could control. The above is an incomplete summary.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:00 am

I see. I would've sued Sony something fierce, but that's just me, and while I have no idea what they are, I'm sure there are reasons that would've have worked out. But I would've tried.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Temzin » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:22 am

I can certainly see why someone wouldn't like WD, especially now, though considering what a path they blazed in their time in terms of having actually well-written scripts, I think many people would forgive the incidental chatter or pop culturisms in their early releases. The quality of writing in the main story segments is undeniable---try to imagine the high quality word choice of Ghaleon's death scene in Eternal Blue written by a different translation company in 1994, it's inconcievable. I have played very few games in English, WD's takes on Lunar being most of them, but it's a delight. But I can see based on your points why someone might not like it! There are a few too many criticisms related to personalities as opposed to the product, though, I'd note. However, one thing that you may actually want to reconsider:
Arlia wrote: Oh, and you don't present a youngster with sex jokes, ever. That's not acceptable to me. Put whatever you want on the box, "suggestive themes", whatever, but can you think of anything more horrible then presenting sex to a kid while they're just trying to play a cartoon-looking video game? There was nothing mature about the story, so sex scenes or anything. That didn't need to be in there. If you're not mature enough to not ruin someone else's project, you have no business in the business.
That's not necessarily true. This is a very...American (or traditional) observation that's far from universal, least of all regarding a set of games like Lunar. Even before it was translated, it was a highly playful game with a cheerful sexuality to it that is a product of a culture at large...you might call WD a good "match" for the game, in a sense. People always joke that scenario writer Shigema insists on inserting shower scenes in his games. So while I personally can't imagine being "offended" at young age (and it's fine if you were personally!), it's really not something that can be fairly laid at WD's feet.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Alunissage » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:17 am

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say when I mentioned the bromide card. I don't know if things like the Vane wife's diary about confessing her affairs with all the tradespeople were in the original games, but given the bathing scenes and bromides and such I wouldn't be surprised. (And I assume Kizyr would've noted it in his J->E notes if this was different. I do remember the Mia Fan Club with free poster being in the original.)

I should add, it's not really to my taste either but I generally found that the sex jokes weren't obtrusive enough to make me do more than roll my eyes. But also, I played TSS, my first RPG, when I was about 20, so I wasn't thinking of it in terms of what a kid would make of it.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Alunissage » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:25 am

Oh, Arlia, I wanted to mention, I do have some doubles of a few Japanese things if you're interested... though I realize that the motivation for the post was kind of the opposite. Still, I can send you a list of extras I have and their prices, if you want.

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Arlia » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:50 am

Well, I meant crude sex jokes, not sex, period. I find that the early teens are when people, still mostly children, are pressured into excepting it as a good time. Almost all of the messages they receive are bad ones, and I knew it, and I tried desperately to escape them. At the time, I had never played anything like a WD translation, and expected it to be like any other game. Kyle once said something about tripping over his sword if it's not sheathed, I think, and I just... felt so cold, and uncomfortable, and wishing he hadn't just ruined my enjoyment.
Sex is part of life, yes. Being dumb about it is optional.

I don't have to like WD's work. I wish they'd done it differently. I thank them for bringing it over and spending their money on it. But it's not like saying I think they did a bad job on some things is going to make the games vanish into thin air.

That's very kind, Alunissage, but, like you concluded, I'm not too interested in expanding my collection. You'll have first dibs if I don't want the magazine anymore. =)

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Re: GameArts (Grandia/II & Lunar) Collection

Postby Leo » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:05 pm

Arlia wrote:Leo- Not even clicking your link, it's obviously an insult. I've been through enough pointless internet arguments, all for the sake of etiquette, and now I'm just done. My goal actually isn't to be rude- I'm just too spent to give you what you want, and maybe even what you deserve out of a decent internet discussion. I'm broken. Please try and understand.

Please share your opinion, but don't expect me to full-on debate.


Fair enough but you could've at least named off the games with worse voice acting than Grandia.

jay_are wrote:See, at least in Lunar, it feels more natural than that. I've never seen anyone in real life brag about boob size like that.


I agree. They keep the credibility about it when they make the jokes in Lunar. I've heard chicks crack jokes on each other teasing about that, though. A good pair isn't about being big. It's about proportion to the rest of her body.

Alunissage wrote:The final nail in the coffin was Growlanser Generations. Growlanser II and III were originally going to be released separately, but when II was about 95% done, Sony demanded they bundle them.


Is there a means of playing the first one in English?

Temzin wrote:That's not necessarily true. This is a very...American (or traditional) observation that's far from universal, least of all regarding a set of games like Lunar. Even before it was translated, it was a highly playful game with a cheerful sexuality to it that is a product of a culture at large...you might call WD a good "match" for the game, in a sense. People always joke that scenario writer Shigema insists on inserting shower scenes in his games. So while I personally can't imagine being "offended" at young age (and it's fine if you were personally!), it's really not something that can be fairly laid at WD's feet.


Shh! A lot of are still pretending sex is "holy" on this side of the pond! :P I wonder how long it'll be before this country (and the rest of the world) will realize sex isn't "dirty". I also wonder if Shigema tries to claim he includes them for symbolism rather than just saying he likes them. :lol:

Alunissage wrote:Yeah, that's what I was trying to say when I mentioned the bromide card. I don't know if things like the Vane wife's diary about confessing her affairs with all the tradespeople were in the original games, but given the bathing scenes and bromides and such I wouldn't be surprised. (And I assume Kizyr would've noted it in his J->E notes if this was different. I do remember the Mia Fan Club with free poster being in the original.)


What about the bookshelf where you read what must be a paragraph or two from a cheesy sexual romance novel? Was that in the original? I know a lot of American women read that crap but I'm not sure if they're much of a part of Japanese culture.

Arlia wrote:Well, I meant crude sex jokes, not sex, period. I find that the early teens are when people, still mostly children, are pressured into excepting it as a good time. Almost all of the messages they receive are bad ones, and I knew it, and I tried desperately to escape them. At the time, I had never played anything like a WD translation, and expected it to be like any other game. Kyle once said something about tripping over his sword if it's not sheathed, I think, and I just... felt so cold, and uncomfortable, and wishing he hadn't just ruined my enjoyment.
Sex is part of life, yes. Being dumb about it is optional.


Kyle promoted using protection, though. Gotta give him credit for that! And yes, sex is a part of life but being uptight about it is optional as well. The only aspect of sex that has to be completely serious all the time is safety and carefulness in avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. Yes, I know we all have different views on the subject and dumb is subjective as well.


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