Althenaism

[segaboy7]

the thing is didn't althena want people to believe in themselfs end and not worship her?
she wanted people to depend on themselves and not her, or am I mistaken?

[Angelalex242]

No, you've got it right.

Althena died cause she wanted people to rely on themselves.

...So, strangely, Althena's wish for humanity is that they WOULD all become atheists. Wierd.

[ilovemyguitar]

Well, I don't know if belief that there USED to be a god/goddess qualifies as atheism.

But anyway, I think it would be the most interesting if Lucia turned out to not actually be a Goddess, but was still regarded as such by the people of Lunar. That could even be a game's twist, a la the "Althena is dead" twist of Lunar 2: Lucia is not a Goddess.

Or how about an even bigger twist: Ramus is a god! That's why he looks the same in Lunar 2 after 1000 years. That whole story about him beind descended from the original Ramus is just a cover story; he's actually been alive and running that shop for 1000 years.

[Angelalex242]

...Ramusism?

...I'm not even gonna go there. If you think Althena's Chosen were donation happy...

Hmmm. Well, there are more then a few people on the boards who object to my stipulation that Lucia is a goddess, even though I personally believe her to be a true goddess.

So there could WELL be an idea that Lucia is regarded as goddess even though she is not.

[drumlord]

Just because Althena died doesn't necessarily mean she no longer exists. We don't know how the afterlife works. Perhaps she stays as goddess and merely resides in the afterlife. Perhaps she can come back from the afterlife, which is pretty much what Zophar did after his defeat that destroyed the Blue Star, no? There's a lot of "we don't know" going on there. And if there isn't an afterlife, what kind of toll would that take on the citizens of Lunar? Because Althena is physically there, somebody could have asked her "What happens when we die?" and she would say "Nothing dude, this is it." Wouldn't be very pleasant for them, I say

[Angelalex242]

That'd hold more weight if she hadn't flat out TOLD Lucia the Goddess Althena doesn't exist any longer.

So, if there's an afterlife, she must exist there as Luna only, without access to any of her divine power.

But an afterlife doesn't seem to be all prevelant, except...

One of the priests in Azado calls Mauri's flames the 'Flames of Hell.' Now. Hell might just be Zophar's domain, or it might be a place of punishment created for dark mortals...

Comes to that, where did Ghaleon go when he died the first time? What did Zophar revive him out of? Presumably, Ghaleon ended up in the OTHER place the second time...Heaven?

But yeah. Unless Lucia's running the afterlife by default, I personally believe Heaven doesn't have ANYONE in charge once Althena kicks the bucket. Luna doesn't have any powers left, after all. She has 0 mp, so she can't even magically sing anymore. And neither does Alex and Dyne for that matter. (Based on SSSC, mind...)

[Kizyr]

And I can't begin to imagine how Lucia could ever measure up and be considered a goddess.

I think Lucia is definitely a 'goddess' in the Lunar sense. Though, one as powerful as Althena... definitely not. At least from the description of her in the opening of the EB novel, it leads me to believe that she's definitely a goddess, though of a lesser sort.

The dragons in Lunar are sort of corporeal forms of the magical energy present on Lunar. So, I figure that Lucia is weak the very same way that the Blue Star is weak. Though, unlike an actual goddess who rules over the Blue Star, I think she's more so the one in charge of the restoration of the Blue Star.

So, she has a diminished role, but I still think she's a goddess in the same sense that Althena is. It'd be like comparing, say, Isis to Amon-Ra.

And I still think there's a reason for Cadin to be there that does not contradict Althena's image, and that Ghaleon was to blame for keeping them there. Heck, given how drastically the geography changes in only a thousand years that part of the world could have just slowly drifted out of the Light.

Hm, I'm not sure if Cadin could've just 'drifted' out of the light, though it wouldn't be an entirely unreasonable explanation. I can't readily agree with that though since, at the very least, the Frontier seems to be on the same continent / land mass each time (in DS, SSS, and EB).

I figure that the residents of Cadin had a physical passage to the other side, but whether that passage was really feasible for most of its residents is another thing altogether. There really was only the magical portal... So even if a resident had the requisite magical knowledge to use it, it might still require traipsing through a dangerous cavern to get there and back. KF

[Angelalex242]

Well, Althena is trying to teach Lucia to NOT rule over the Blue Star. If she got that lesson across is up for debate. If Lucia is thinking logically, she should be worried about humanity becoming too dependant on her, Lucia, instead of Althena.

Comes to that...does anyone think the people of Lunar ever will figure out Althena's dead?

If Lucia kept Althena's power, like I say she did, does that mean the people of Lunar will figure it out? (And if she kept it, she's defintiely a full strength Goddess. Keeping in with Egyptian mythology, this'd make Lucia like Horus...absorbing the essence of the aging Re, and becoming Re-Horakhty. This boosted Horus's power up beyond Osiris's power, who's his own father. And made Re-Horakhty king of the gods. THIS is an example of what I think absorbing Althena's power does for Lucia if she keeps it.)

If she did not keep Althena's power, will the people of Lunar figure it out anyway even though Althena's power is then spread out through the land? The Dragons seem to be keeping their traps shut for the last thousand years. What would cause them to change their minds?

[Kizyr]

Comes to that...does anyone think the people of Lunar ever will figure out Althena's dead?

The rest of your analogies I think are fine, but this is the only big point of contention I have... Luna may be dead, and Althena may never again choose to reincarnate into another form. But saying Althena is dead seems a bit inaccurate... More so, she doesn't directly intervene, and her power is spread across the world instead of concentrated in herself and divided as she sees fit (think mana or 'the force' instead of having to go through an intercessor). KF

[Alunissage]

An afterlife of any sort has not appeared to be a feature of Lunar. The few references to things like the fires of hell seem like translation artifacts...if not the translation from Japanese to English, the translation of Lunarian to either. (As with the reference to an angel watching over Luna in the Boat Song, which is definitely English-only.) How upsetting can it be for there to be no afterlife if you haven’t been brought up to believe there is one in the first place? One of the refreshing things about Althena worship is that it doesn’t have a lot of structure, as Kizyr commented.

Here are the references to afterlifelike things I recall:

- the Dragon Angels in TSS, who ultimately test Alex to become Dragonmaster (but require Nall to actually make him one). They do have some sort of corporeal-seeming existence, though, because at the end Ghaleon is able to basically bump them off...upon which they become little sparks which still talk. So it isn’t necessarily a great argument for them actually being ghosts, given that they can take a fatal-looking blow (the text dances around the verb, with someone saying "The dragon angels...with one shot!" or similar) and become some much smaller and weaker-looking form.

- the Black Dragon in TSS, which is only a skeleton. Sounds like this still counts as the actual Dragon, though, given Ghaleon’s comments about it being the last hope of becoming a dragonmaster and that the goddess was then totally unprotected. In that game we don’t see any hint of Dark Althena until after that point...but that’s a different discussion.

- the spirits of the Blue and Red dragons in TSS, though dragons seem to be a special case regardless, being the embodiment of magical power.

- Ghaleon, of course. Don’t know what to say about that. Incidentally, the first Lunar manga, Childhood’s End, seems to imply that Xenobia survived in some fashion down to Hiro’s day, though I was never clear exactly what was going on there.

- Ghaleon’s "Are you watching in secret, Dyne?" speech. Though this rather seems to argue against an afterlife, since he wouldn’t need to ask if he knew. It seems more rhetorical to me, a means to compare Hiro and company with Dyne in his own mind.

- Zophar...but I don’t think this is really a second life. I always had the clear feeling that he was confined (if severely weakened) by Althena, not destroyed...hence why Lucia recognizes him. She’s not surprised to find he still exists. Incidentally, the last thing he says about returning whenever there’s evil in men’s hearts (or whatever it is) seems to be a US addition.

Oh, and by not being able to see Lucia as a goddess, I meant mainly temperamentally, just as some humans weren't fit to be Dragonmaster. Is there any evidence anywhere that Lucia thinks logically?

[Angelalex242]

Well, if Althena isn't dead, how can Lucia claim her 'inheritance' in the first place?

(And how did Zophar strip it from her...Althena's power gets kicked around like a football between Zophar and Lucia. Lucia must've taken it back at some point...Ghaleon says to win, you have to strip Althena's power from Zophar. Ghaleon was acting as a good guy at that point who wanted Zophar to lose, and one would have to assume the uberwizard knows what he's talking about.)

It'd be sorta rude to ask for your inheritance from someone isn't dead.

That, and Althena SAID she doesn't exist anymore. If you say she's not dead, did she lie to Lucia? Or did she end up in the afterlife and figure out:oh, damn, people still expect me to run Heaven?

[phyco126]

Actually, Ghaleon's movie where he dies seems to point to an afterlife for me. Just the whole way the movie is done. After he asks if Dyne is "...watching in secret..." the clouds part, sun hit's Ghaleon's face, and he fades out of exsistance, sort of if he was finally let into the afterlife (or their heaven if there was to be one.)

[Kizyr]

Well, if Althena isn't dead, how can Lucia claim her 'inheritance' in the first place?

(And how did Zophar strip it from her...

It's because Althena's power was made up-for-grabs by having it spread across the whole of humanity. It was like Althena saying "I'm no longer your intermediary for healing and the like; you can decide that for yourself."

Since it's spread across the whole of humanity, someone like Lucia (with a goddess' capability) could effectively claim it--which is why it took magic away from Lunar for the time being. Zophar was able to snatch it since he was in all ways more experienced than Lucia. Had Lucia tried to take him on herself, even if she had no inhibitions, she would've lost: she's just too weak, even for a celestial creature. KF

[Angelalex242]

...I disagree.

If Lucia had pulled the trigger, Zophar told her what'd happen. I think Zophar was telling the truth because in that case, the truth hurts more.

Lucia would've pulled the trigger, banished Zophar...and just like Zophar said, the world would then go boom just like the Blue Star.

In that way, Zophar was not lying when he called Lucia a destroyer...if Lucia had banished him, she would've been.

But then, Althena herself apparently can see far enough in the future to pinpoint Hiro as Lucia's boyfriend 1000 years in advance. If Zophar can pull the same stunt, he must've realized Lucia would gain Human feelings on her journey, and he could play on that.

Thus, in D&D Terms, Lucia has a higher Divine Rank, perhaps, and more firepower, but Zophar has a bigger Intelligence and Wisdom Score. He just plain outsmarted her, in my opinion. As you say, Zophar is FAR more experienced. Zophar's no dummy. He's even wise enough to make Lucia doubt in humanity's power. "Before you bet on them, remember that it was the power of humanity that revived me! Face it, Althena's power is your only hope." Etc.

[NallOne]

Incidentally, the last thing he says about returning whenever there’s evil in men’s hearts (or whatever it is) seems to be a US addition.

I brought this up in another topic, but you never responded to it: Doesn't Zophar say (and Lucia support) something similar to that at the end of the EB Manga?

[Alunissage]

Sorry, I forgot to check and then forgot where my older Lunar files are (they're from two computers ago and by now I've forgotten how I had everything organized). Checking now...you're right:


Zophar: I'm disintegrating......
OOOOOHHHH...
My body--
Goddess! I shall revive again one day...
As long as humans exist, so shall I...

Lucia: Zophar! It may well be certain that you will eventually revive--


pg. 159


Lucia: over
and over...
That may be the work of humans...
but,
Hiero proved to me
the strength within humans to overcome the darkness in their hearts.
Begone, Zophar.
Return to the darkness where you belong.

[Zophar and his tower disintegrate.]
---
However...there doesn't seem to be that cause-and-effect relationship implied so much. I read it as that he's not destroyed permanently then, as he was not when Althena fought him, but the key to his revival is the darkness in humans' hearts. But I don't think he's the personification of that darkness, just that that darkness impels them to call on him.

Should point out that the manga does have a fair amount of variation on the story, though not to the degree that the SSS novels do compared to the Lunar 1 games. For one thing, the story up to just after the part I quoted turns out to be a bedtime story Ronfar is telling his two-year-old daughter, Lu (Mauri walks in with their other infant); for another, Ghaleon isn't in it at all, nor is the whole dragon eye thing and hence the Star Dragon.

[NallOne]

However...there doesn't seem to be that cause-and-effect relationship implied so much. I read it as that he's not destroyed permanently then, as he was not when Althena fought him, but the key to his revival is the darkness in humans' hearts. But I don't think he's the personification of that darkness, just that that darkness impels them to call on him.

Should point out that the manga does have a fair amount of variation on the story, though not to the degree that the SSS novels do compared to the Lunar 1 games. For one thing, the story up to just after the part I quoted turns out to be a bedtime story Ronfar is telling his two-year-old daughter, Lu (Mauri walks in with their other infant); for another, Ghaleon isn't in it at all, nor is the whole dragon eye thing and hence the Star Dragon.

I wasn't saying it implied that really, I was just trying to point out that it wasn't only mentioned in the US translation. Another question I asked in that other topic that goes with this was which came first: The EB Manga or the localization?

The reason I asked was because I thought perhaps it was a possibility that it was adopted from the translation, and not the original intention when EB was made.

[GhaleonOne]

Actually, Ghaleon's movie where he dies seems to point to an afterlife for me. Just the whole way the movie is done. After he asks if Dyne is "...watching in secret..." the clouds part, sun hit's Ghaleon's face, and he fades out of exsistance, sort of if he was finally let into the afterlife (or their heaven if there was to be one.)

There's definately some kind of afterlife. Ghaleon specifically stated in Pentigulia to Lucia "he brought me back from the netherworld knowing that I too had a score to settle with her and would sell my eternal soul at a chance to take revenge on the world that ruined me." Seems to imply some kind of afterlife for Ghaleon, at the very least.

[phyco126]

Hmmmm. Zophar probably didn't see deep enough, as Ghaleon is the good guy in the EBC. Unless he changes for the good during the course of Hiro's quest.

[DevNall]

Hmmmm. Zophar probably didn't see deep enough, as Ghaleon is the good guy in the EBC. Unless he changes for the good during the course of Hiro's quest.

Zophar may be smart, but he's not omnipotent.