Althenaism

[segaboy7]

as for zophar being dead and coming back to life, if I remember correctly they talk as if zophar had been seal or contained by althena but not killed, he was to powerful. Then to come back fully he feed off the greed and evil of certain people of lunar, just like he did the bluestar. So I don't ever really think zophar has been there and came back. But I do believe Lunar has an after life, just different from our concept of heaven and hell.

[Alunissage]

I understand what you're saying, but I still don't feel it's fair to Ghaleon, or any of those other characters, to say that they're just "grafted on". The whole point of a sidecast is to enhance the story. You could remove Ghaleon or any of the other characters, and you definately loose a large impact of the plot. Regardless of how entwined those characters are to the story. This is a matter of opinion, certainly, but I just feel your wording of him being "grafted on" is going too far. His character added a lot to the overall story. And that's certainly why the series has such a strong story. Lunar is based on character-driven story. The overall plots are quite cliched. We've talked about it before. When you start nixing characters, you take a lot away from the story, even if they play smaller roles than the playable characters. The whole point of a story like Lunar is how well the characters fit into the plot. Take that away, and you take away a large part of what makes the series so good.

True, about the character-driven nature of the story; that's what I liked about the game to begin with. I don't really mean it as a slight to Ghaleon in any way, it's just that looked at from the outside it's kind of cliched, isn't it, to resurrect a villain? The fact that he isn't just a repeat of his Lunar 1 self and isn't the main villain is one of his strengths. I had pretty much the same reaction to Xenobia reappearing in the Childhood's End manga, although I don't remember the exact mechanism and she doesn't really show much difference from what she was in the game. I see it in books, too...and yes, this includes a series where I loved the bad guy and didn't mind him showing up again and eventually being redeemed even though he was 'killed' TWICE. However, even while enjoying reading it I had to admit that it seemed rather silly. I just didn't care, because I was having a good time reading it.

This isn't an argument about Ghaleon, this is an argument against EB, and the entire series after TSS. I understand that you think TSS is the best game in the series. There are many that agree. But it's an opinion. Althena is gone in EB, she felt humanity was relying to much on her. She fell in love with Alex, and after the events with Ghaleon, she felt she was hurting humanity more than helping it, so she chose to grow old and die with Alex. What is so wrong with that? That seems to be your gripe here, but it's part of the story. The change in themes from TSS to EB is why I liked the originals more than the remakes. I agree with what you've said in the past regarding SSSC taking on a number of EB's themes. The reason EB was such a strong sequel is because it took elements such as Ghaleon and Nall from TSS, and then weaved it's own story into the history of Lunar using it's own themes, rather than just using TSS as a crutch.

The whole point I'm getting at is that just because a character could be removed from the story doesn't mean they're "grafted on". Taking Ghaleon out of EB would put a serious dent in the overall feel and power of the story.

I haven't played that part in quite a while, but I distinctly remember Luna in EB saying that "But this time, something different happened. I found true love... It was to be my last rebirth." I really don't recall the humanity being better off without her bit in that game; I thought that was one reason why SSSC's change to that startled and annoyed many fans. (I don't count myself in that because I played SSSC before EB and didn't even know Althena/Luna died until the cutscene of the recording in EB.) Anyone got a good way to check? Anyway, I wasn't really getting at whether or not Alex and Luna should have lived, just using it as an example where resurrection or the like might have been reasonably expected.

We don't really know much about what Althena's worship encompasses. Singing and dancing and healing. We don't see a funeral, except in the Vheen manga. We don't hear a sermon. We don't see any graves; Dyne's was a monument. All that doesn't prove that there's no afterlife and no resurrection, but it's part of why it just doesn't feel right to me. Althena seems to have been more concerned about life than death. And...she's not omnipotent. She can only defeat Zophar by destroying the Blue Star. She doesn't just heal the Blue Star the way she terraformed Lunar. She doesn't foresee Ghaleon's actions, as someone commented in another thread. It just doesn't feel like she'd have power over mortality and survival past death, beyond her own (and thus far we don't know how she usually returned to being a goddess after taking a human form; it may not have involved death at all). I mean, she seems like a goddess who's a goddess by virtue of being so much more powerful and all than humans, not because she created life, the universe, and everything. It really isn't...religious much, is it? Lacking Althena's light is a big deal in the Frontier, but it's not because they all decided to not believe in her or something, it's that they're out of her scope of influence. In a system where goddesses are that limited, souls and survival and the afterlife just seem the wrong scale somehow. I don't really know how to clearly articulate it.

I still don't think Zophar being able to revive Ghaleon, however that was done, generalizes to Althena and Lucia being able to do it. Zophar comments on how his power and Althena's were different in referring to destruction and creation.

[GhaleonOne]

I don't really mean it as a slight to Ghaleon in any way, it's just that looked at from the outside it's kind of cliched, isn't it, to resurrect a villain?

I wouldn't have it any other way though. Practically everything in Lunar is cliched. It's just Lunar does it so well.

I haven't played that part in quite a while, but I distinctly remember Luna in EB saying that "But this time, something different happened. I found true love... It was to be my last rebirth." I really don't recall the humanity being better off without her bit in that game; I thought that was one reason why SSSC's change to that startled and annoyed many fans. (I don't count myself in that because I played SSSC before EB and didn't even know Althena/Luna died until the cutscene of the recording in EB.) Anyone got a good way to check?

Actually, that's a good point. I forgot about the wording of that scene. But then, it still fits in that there was such a stark contrast between TSS and EB. TSS had it's own distinct feel, and so did EB. Taking SSSC and EBC, they seem to push the exact same theme. Though in EB, there is that issue of humanity needing to believe in itself to tackle Zophar. But that was an EB theme, not a TSS theme. That is actually one of the things that annoyed me about SSSC. They practically gave away the rebirth thing in SSSC at the expense of the Black Dragon/Dyne/Ghaleon background.

I still don't think Zophar being able to revive Ghaleon, however that was done, generalizes to Althena and Lucia being able to do it. Zophar comments on how his power and Althena's were different in referring to destruction and creation.

That I completely agree with. It's possible Althena and Lucia might have the power to resurrect, but if they do, which I doubt, they don't exercise it. Well, I take that back. Lucia has to "save" Hiro from death through that crystalization thing using the power of the Blue Spire. Though how much of that was of her own power, and how much of that was of the power stored in the Blue Spire, I don't know. Likely it was the latter.

[Angelalex242]

There was also the Avalanche. I'm not sure how fatal that was, or how many bones were busted or the like under tons of falling ice, never mind the hypothermia.

But Lucia seems able to fix that well enough. I just can't be sure it was a ressurrection.

I can't comment on fixing the crystalization thing cause it's not part of the games I played. It was edited right out.

[GhaleonOne]

Unfortunate too. It was a really good scene.

And I don't think the avalanche was fatal. It would have been had Lucia not come back. But I seem to recall one of the characters saying they would have died had Lucia not come back to heal them.

[Angelalex242]

...well, I just played through it last week.

Hiro doesn't seem to have died...he was paralyzed and broken and such, though. Otherwise he couldn't respond to Lucia before she cast her spell.

Ruby might well have died, and she does not speak before Lucia heals her. A red Dragon caught an icy avalanche hits an elemental weakness, and she doesn't have her dragon aura yet.

The other three don't say anything before Lucia heals them, so they could've died or not.

[Alunissage]

I'd expect that if Hiro survived the rest of them would have too. If resurrection were intended it'd be so much more poignant for Hiro to be one of the resurrectees. And he was a desert boy himself, probably more vulnerable than Ruby. Also, elemental affiliations really don't seem to have mattered much beyond the setting of the lairs and to an extent the spells. The Red Dragon ones, sure, but there isn't a water or earth one. Might be able to make a case for Dragon Protect as it's shown in SSSC, looking like an icy sphere (and, of course, Mia's Ice Shell ups defense).

[Angelalex242]

Well, the Fiends, at least, have elemental weaknesses. Fire works on the White Fiend, Ice works on the Red Fiend, and Fire and Lightning work on the Blue Fiend. And the Black Fiend is physical resistant. Damn SOB Black Fiend...

Anyways, the Fiends would have the same elemental weaknesses as the Dragons they fake, one would assume.

(So, when Ruby breathes on Nall, that HURTS like the dickens...or it would, if Nall weren't about 980 years older...)

[Alunissage]

Fiends != Dragons. They're echoing their locations, if anything. I don't recall the Black Dragon being particularly ground-oriented, and that's the only dragon you actually fight. We never see any other dragons get attacked, aside from Quark; one might imagine that they, like Lucia, have insane defense. If they were that vulnerable, it doesn't seem that they'd be so long-lived. Nall shows up in the Red Dragon Cave when Ruby is dithering, doesn't he? Not to mention accompanying Alex there. That'd be a place where you'd expect him to be uncomfortable. Likewise, Ruby goes to the white and blue dragon caves with no trouble, and Zulan is fine except for being physically smacked by the avalanche. She doesn't have any trouble producing flame to melt what she needs to melt. I don't think the opposing elements matter much.

(As a side note, I remember the EB guide saying to power up Lemina's Ice and Flame spells more or less evenly until about halfway through the game, then keep juicing the Ice spells. Realized that it really was kind of an odd mix, three ice/water dungeons fairly close together, then one fire dungeon.)

[Angelalex242]

It does seem that other then Ghaleon and Dragonmasters, Dragons don't actually lose much.

Well, except Hiro beats the Star Dragon, but then Hiro's gone through Zophar first, so one would expect him to be able to handle a Dragon.

Nall doesn't enter the Red Dragon cave in the remake. He shows up just outside of it.

And it's not 3 ice in a row. It's just 2. White/Blue/Black/Red. And Black is no magic allowed...everything except one critter is magic resistant. Probably to show Borgan's stupidity. Trying to get through the Black Dragon cave with magic would be unwise.

[Alunissage]

We were just talking about the avalanche...have you forgotten Zulan already? That's what I was referring to. Do you really think I don't know the order the dragon caves are encountered in? Dungeons = not just dragon lairs.

I don't remember whether Nall actually appears inside the cave in the original. He does, of course, accompany Alex.

Interesting that the Stardust Ring is found in a cave full of magic-resistant monsters.

[Angelalex242]

The Stardust Ring helps Jean and Hiro too, and they have potent physical attacks that work just fine in the Black Cave. It's not useless in there. Unless, of course, you put it on Lemina.


Anyways. Since I originally made this topic to try and figure out what Althena's actual credo was like before she came up with 'screw it all, humanity is better.'

Any ideas? And Kizyr, if Dragon Song details it and it's all a bunch of spoilers, do let us know. 1000 years before SSSC, Althena's religion should be in full force, without Althena yet going the humanity route.

Though, I also mentioned figuring out what Lucia's credo is like, assuming a religion evolves around her to replace Althena.

And what Zophar's Credo is. EBC is a resource here...he seems to oppress the natural human impulses for happiness, and encourages greed and so on to foster his own return. He also seems to the standard 'fun is evil' type stuff...no drinking, carousing, sex, etc. 'Althena's' chosen are a priesthood to be feared.

[GhaleonOne]

Nall didn't even show up at the Red Dragon Cave in the original. That entire scene is a remake exclusive. He did, however, show up after you revive Hiro from his crystal form over in the Blue Spire.

http://www.lunar-net.com/eb/screens/screens32.php

Also shows the scenes where Ronfar gets ticked and decides to save Hiro himself if Lucia won't do it.

[Angelalex242]

Heh. I read through that. Poor Lucia. It's just so hard for her to get this whole humanity thing. Heh heh. The rest of the party was all 'bad goddess, no biscuit'.

[Alunissage]

Reminds me all over again how limiting only having a single character portrait is...Ruby's grinning the whole time she's saying distinctly uncheerful stuff.

[Angelalex242]

Anyways. Say, somehow, people do end up trading deities.

Say, perhaps, that the crossover isn't total.

Boy, that'd be sad for Lucia.

Imagine a world where some people, concluding she's the only living deity left, decide to worship her instead of Althena, cause Althena's dead.

While the other half of the world concludes 'Althena lives in our hearts, and you guys are abandoning her!'

...I wonder if there'd be a religious war on Lunar over it...

[Kizyr]

With the death of Althena, magic power was greatly 'democratized' in being in each person's heart, instead of concentrated and given through her. But the fact that there were still legitimate priests of Althena (not the Chosen, but others like Ronfar) who could do healing implies that Althena was never really gone and dead, but not active and interfering.

Religious wars, or even religious arguments, are entirely unlike the world of Lunar. The only time there was a disdain for it came with the Chosen, and that was due to their corruption and greed, not Althena. To a lesser degree, there was the disdain the Vile Tribe had for Althena, but they were justified since she was the one who banished them. Regardless, by EB's time, the Vile Tribe had assimilated into the rest of the world and there was no longer that kind of animosity. KF

[Angelalex242]

Key word there is /was/ democratized.

Never mind whether she did or not. Say Lucia does, as I like to think, take Althena's power and keep it post Zophar's...removal.

What happens to priests and wizards then? Are they getting it from her, now, or from the power of humanity?

[Kizyr]

Never mind whether she did or not. Say Lucia does, as I like to think, take Althena's power and keep it post Zophar's...removal.

? It was pretty clear that once she believed in humanity, she didn't hold onto the power of Althena any longer. She gave it up during the battle with Zophar.

Besides which, the priests and such didn't lose their power after she returned to the Blue Star, so there's no argument that she kept hold of it. Even then, with Zophar gone, she had no need to. KF

[Angelalex242]

Are you sure of that?

Do we see anyone outside the party casting spells?

It's as feasible the power was kept to revive the Blue Star.

The sequence of the EBC fight...when she breaks free, she glows with that blue aura. The party is healed to full in a flash of blue light, and she stops glowing.

After the battle, she's glowing blue briefly, then stops, when she finally drops to the ground before the 3rd Zophar fight.

But...most importantly...when she goes home, the forcefield Hiro beats on is also blue. The Forcefield could've been generated by the same power.