Overly formal language is overly formal...

For discussion of Lunar: Silver Star Harmony, the PSP remake of Lunar 1
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fates
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby fates » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:11 am

Gotcha covered!

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:40 am

fates wrote:Gotcha covered!

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I knew I could count on you! Time to double up!

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Jenner » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:09 am

Silver Phoenix wrote:
fates wrote:Gotcha covered!

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I knew I could count on you! Time to double up!


I don't see any way how this cannot get better the more the quote it!
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby SilentApprovalRobot » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:28 pm

Jenner wrote:
Silver Phoenix wrote:
fates wrote:Gotcha covered!

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I knew I could count on you! Time to double up!


I don't see any way how this cannot get better the more the quote it!


...

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:36 pm

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I don't see any way how this cannot get better the more the quote it!



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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Alunissage » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:25 pm

SilentApprovalRobot wrote:
Alunissage wrote: Now I want to find time to rewrite the whole thing, and that's not even my own specialty.

...

Only have had time for half the thing, and imperfectly at that. But here goes.

Far away, far beyond sight
Past that horizon where day turns into night
Unknown winds take us aflight
Borne on our wings of light.

Surely we'll find as our paths intertwine
Harmony or discord, our songs will lead us toward
The future that beckons us on...

So now our journey begins
Together we'll soar, let's open the door
To that world of memory
Legends and dreams become reality!

TSS Kyle (in Lyton) wrote:At least I sorta rhyme.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:17 am

Is this reworking in response to XSEED's or WD's lyrics? Seems a bit of both to some degree.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Alunissage » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:34 am

I looked at both sets of lyrics and two translations, so I was working off of four versions total. I found as I was looking at the one translation I had on hand of the full song (which my notes attribute to Garrett McGowan, yet the first half is mysteriously the same one in the WD manual) that the WD version used ideas from the second half, like the references to dreams and hope. I always wondered why the content seemed so different from the translations. Anyway, since I was ostensibly rewriting XSEED's version, it's closer to that -- though the only line I quoted in full is almost the only one that doesn't rhyme.

The harmony line, of course, is my own, as a nod to the title of this particular iteration of Lunar 1. I also used "unknown winds" as a compromise between the dialogue line that started this whole silly squabbling thread and the rather opposite idea in the song lyrics (on which I consulted Shiva).

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:51 am

I think the issue a lot of people have is that the new rendition isn't as "rhymey." It has it to some degree, but in a way it's almost free verse singing. The problem with trying to do English lyrics direct from translation is that the message may not be conveyed as nicely, so that's where the interpretive lyrics come in.

XSEED's lyrics may not rhyme as much, but I think they fit. Of course with anything just rewording versus can make all the difference.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Roogle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:18 pm

What an excellent rewrite, Alunissage! Thank you for taking the time to make that.
So, now, our journey begins...

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby SilentApprovalRobot » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:09 pm

Alunissage wrote:Only have had time for half the thing, and imperfectly at that. But here goes.

Far away, far beyond sight
Past that horizon where day turns into night
Unknown winds take us aflight
Borne on our wings of light.

Surely we'll find as our paths intertwine
Harmony or discord, our songs will lead us toward
The future that beckons us on...

So now our journey begins
Together we'll soar, let's open the door
To that world of memory
Legends and dreams become reality!


...

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Aaron » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:25 pm


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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:36 pm

I just came across this, and while I own it I had no need to go back and watch it at this point in time.

Here Vic is talking about Wind's Nocturne (Luna's boat song) and how he says in the old games he translated them literally (um, no you didn't "TSS") and how he changed the lyrics completely in SSSC to make the songs sound better. I'm not arguing with this, because I liked Wind's Nocturne the most out of the two songs.

It also seems as though any of the people who did voice work for WD only ever worked with them. Rhonda Gibson (Luna) was the wife of Vic's best friend. I don't know if any of the cast had professional roles outside of WD aside from Ashley Angel's big break. He also looked a hell of a lot cuter here before his hair went crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcN4Mh_kmuU&NR=1

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Lunar Eclipse » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:05 pm

Silver Phoenix wrote:Here Vic is talking about Wind's Nocturne (Luna's boat song) and how he says in the old games he translated them literally (um, no you didn't "TSS") and how he changed the lyrics completely in SSSC to make the songs sound better. I'm not arguing with this, because I liked Wind's Nocturne the most out of the two songs.

As you said, there's really no problem with changing the lyrics as long as the general feeling is maintained. On that point, I agree with Vic. I just don't agree with his opinion regarding what constitutes "poetic/lyrical structure". Even though you can be freer with form and eschew standard sentence structure, I think you still need to be very careful with diction and pay attention to the parts of speech that you're using in order to ensure that the message you're conveying isn't overly awkward and actually gets across to listeners with relative ease and no need for explanation.

Silver Phoenix wrote:It also seems as though any of the people who did voice work for WD only ever worked with them. Rhonda Gibson (Luna) was the wife of Vic's best friend. I don't know if any of the cast had professional roles outside of WD aside from Ashley Angel's big break. He also looked a hell of a lot cuter here before his hair went crazy.

I believe most of them were stage actors, which, while not professional voice talent, was still usually better than the talent pools other game companies were pulling from at that time. You can't really fault him there, though I do still think it's kind of ridiculous for people to continue to hold them in such high regard for anything beyond what they meant for the time.
Let those who war with life forfeit their own! -- Mareg, Grandia II

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:35 am

I agree on the sentiment that the VA's were far from "gold standard" like so many are intent on believing. Like I've said before, I'm glad to have a new take on Lunar that is more new and less of the same.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Zhane Masaki » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:55 pm

Kizyr wrote:
Aaron wrote:The new names don't bother me so much. Although Jessica having a different last name from her dad is slightly irritating. To me the problem is what I stated earlier. An over the top flowery translation full of idioms.

Jessica's name is nothing new. She's had a different last name (Alkirk vs. de Alkirk) from her father in every single version of Lunar. KF


In my opinion, her name now being Jessica Alkirk as opposed to Jessica de Alkirk is simply a matter of family tradition. My guess is that in Mel's family, you have to earn the "de" being put in your name when you come of age. So in a way, this is Jessica becoming a grown woman in the eyes of her father.

Kizyr wrote:
Imperial Knight wrote:I suppose anything's possible but I doubt that's actually Vic.

It's actually Vic. Both G1 and I have verified this. KF


And I hate to deviate from the topic at hand...but on a personal note to the esteemed Vic Ireland, who originally brought the games we so dearly love over to the States, LUNAR is what inspired me to pursue my current path to enter video game design.
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:04 pm

If it was really Lunar itself you should be thanking Game Arts, and Working Designs for the localization.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Lunar3coming » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:37 am

Alunissage wrote:
SilentApprovalRobot wrote:
Alunissage wrote: Now I want to find time to rewrite the whole thing, and that's not even my own specialty.

...

Only have had time for half the thing, and imperfectly at that. But here goes.

Far away, far beyond sight
Past that horizon where day turns into night
Unknown winds take us aflight
Borne on our wings of light.

Surely we'll find as our paths intertwine
Harmony or discord, our songs will lead us toward
The future that beckons us on...

So now our journey begins
Together we'll soar, let's open the door
To that world of memory
Legends and dreams become reality!

TSS Kyle (in Lyton) wrote:At least I sorta rhyme.



I'm not trying to start a flame war here but I don't know about this rewite. It doesn't sound that good...nor does it fit that well with the original Japanese.

Lunar's theme songs are ones that tons of people have tried to take a stab at for years and failed doing miserably. Now we've got a competent one on this new version of Lunar that actually respects the original work and I'm happy about that. Things don't have to rhyme to be good and even pop songs in our own language don't rhyme all the time. Why does everybody got to jump around and try to be a songwriter now? I mean, it's not like we all didn't have a decade to try to come up with something competent and let's face it we didn't. We shouldn't be harping at Xseed now because someone seemingly cared enough to work closely with Japan and respect the work of Game Arts.

Personally WDs versions didn't have much to do with the game and while we've had a few translations, including a fan translation by Kizyr on this website, let's be honest, there are really none that compared to what Xseed has managed to do with them. I think this is really the big reason why we are playing the games and these companies are translating them.

I really like my LE copy of Lunar and while I had a few issues with the voice acting I am glad the the Japanese developers work was respected this time around. It's about time. The missing "wheaties" lines and such are a welcome addition for me.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Alunissage » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:47 pm

I think you're confusing the specific with the general here. Everybody has not been "jump[ing] around and try[ing] to be a songwriter now." I haven't been doing this "for years", nor have I been aware of other rewrites over the years other than the direct translations various people have made. I gave myself a challenge to maintain the original meaning while making it rhyme and fit the rhythm of the song (and to a lesser extent the visuals of the opening animation); that was it. There are very few deviations from the sense of the original song as I understand it from the three or four translations I read, though I added a couple of things as noted above and left out the more positive and welcoming sense of the future, both because I didn't find phrasing that really pleased me and the animation just after that line shows the drama and strife that lies in store for Alex and friends rather than anything pleasant. I'm sorry that you apparently feel that my effort does not respect the original work; I can't say I agree. I also know, because I asked, that the XSEED lyricist was not offended by my rewriting it, so I hope you're not taking offense on their behalf.

By the way, you do realize that XSEED used very large amounts of WD's translation in the game itself, right?

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Lunar3coming » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:08 am

Alunissage wrote:I think you're confusing the specific with the general here. Everybody has not been "jump[ing] around and try[ing] to be a songwriter now." I haven't been doing this "for years", nor have I been aware of other rewrites over the years other than the direct translations various people have made. I gave myself a challenge to maintain the original meaning while making it rhyme and fit the rhythm of the song (and to a lesser extent the visuals of the opening animation); that was it. There are very few deviations from the sense of the original song as I understand it from the three or four translations I read, though I added a couple of things as noted above and left out the more positive and welcoming sense of the future, both because I didn't find phrasing that really pleased me and the animation just after that line shows the drama and strife that lies in store for Alex and friends rather than anything pleasant. I'm sorry that you apparently feel that my effort does not respect the original work; I can't say I agree. I also know, because I asked, that the XSEED lyricist was not offended by my rewriting it, so I hope you're not taking offense on their behalf.

By the way, you do realize that XSEED used very large amounts of WD's translation in the game itself, right?


I'm not sure what Xseed using some of the Working Designs translation has to do with the songs because they're completely different and nothing was pulled there, that's for sure. Whether Xseed or another company translated this game or not or how much of the WD script was used, is not what I'm taking about here. I'm just saying that I am glad that Game Arts' work was respected and that that songs were translated into a beautiful coherent songs in English this time. These new versions are the first and the only ones to ever give us what Japanese gamers have had all these years in English.

Does the Xseed lyricist use these boards? I'd like to hear their take on how they translated the songs because I tried to do that like Kizyr and a number of people back when the game released on the PSX but yeah, my efforts sure didn't come out be anything like that nor have any of the other translations I've seen before these. Before this game came out, I was a bit worried that it was going to get hashed but I am glad Xseed got someone good to do the songs.

On a side note, it seems to me that some of the WD translation was used but when I read through the main story, it seems like almost all of it was retranslated and a few small selections were used. Ghaleon especially was changed from the WD version. Although I think the changes portray him correctly this time and his complexity instead of the cliched bad guy like the WD version did.

Does anybody know if Xseed has said anything more about the translations other than the few things on facebook. I'd really like to hear from the translator or other key people like we did on the old movie CD packed with the WD versions.

Alunissage, since you seem to know these guys at Xseed, maybe you could ask them to give us a little more information about the translation of this game or something and the differences.


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