Official I Love Lucia Thread

General talk. News, religion, politics, your daily life, whatever, it goes here. Just keep it clean.
User avatar
GhaleonOne
Ghost From The Past
Posts: 9079
jedwabna poszewka na poduszkę 70x80
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:59 am
Location: Not of this world...

Post by GhaleonOne »

Though, in light of the new evidence, I have to wonder if she needed Althena's power, or any power but her own to put Life back in the Blue Star. If Lucia is to the Blue Star as Althena is to Lunar, then she already put the majority of her power into restoring the Blue Star, so she was never at full power in the first place on Lunar. She left the Lion's share of her power as a Goddess 'at home'. Taking on Althena's power, then, made her keeper of Lunar as well as the Blue Star. With the power goes the responsibility. But unlike what Althena did to Lucia's home turf, Lucia could not bring herself to return the favor...and instead chose to spare humanity.


Fixing to head out, but in regards to putting life back on the Blue Star, I don't think that's Lucia or Althena's doing. That power is being stored up in the Blue Spire (which unfortunately was nixed in the remake). There's a scene in the original where Ghaleon kills Hiro as they approach Pentagulia for the second time. Lucia is torn between completing her mission and saving Hiro's life. Ronfar persuades Lucia to save Hiro, in what I consider one hell of a character-booster for the priest-turned-gambling man. Lucia eventually goes to the Blue Spire to resurrect Hiro using a small amount of the power there. Ghaleon himself told Lucia that "if you give me the secrets of the Blue Spire..." which Lucia scoffed at. So, IMO, it's the power of the Blue Spire that eventually restores the Blue Star. At least, in the original.
Last edited by GhaleonOne on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-G1

User avatar
Angelalex242
Legendary Hero
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Lucia's Fortress

Post by Angelalex242 »

But didn't you also say in another thread that restoring Hiro slowed down the resurrection of the Blue Star significantly?

...Hmmmm. Actually, now that I think about it, in the remake, what channels power back to the Blue Star was Althena's Fortress instead of the Blue Spire. She points it out in the FMV where Lucia tells the story of Althena zapping the Blue Star. The problem, of course, is in the remake, Zophar EATS Althena's Fortress, and hence all the accumulated power in it, which completes his resurrection. Yum.

So in the remake, there's nothing to work with but her own power and Althena's. And, of course, Hiro who chases her to the Blue Star. The medium of transporting power to the Blue Star was munched by Zophar, so...
Don't blame me, Lucia promised me lots of snuggles and cuddles if I would be her PR guy.

Image

User avatar
Roas Atrades
Black Dragon Wizard
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:36 pm
Location: Prian, Galadia

Post by Roas Atrades »

Well, keep in mind, other than two really short scenes (intro and ending) we never see what Lucia is capable of on the Blue Star. We only see her on Lunar. That being the case, it's hard to say what the extent of her true powers are. My own opinion is that she is a Goddess, the same Althena, but not the goddess of creation (that belongs to Althena). She has other purposes, and we haven't seen them. The fact that she's the one waiting in the crystal, rather than Althena, shows she has another purpose besides Althena's.


I can't argue that we do not see what she could be capable of, but that is taking into account that she is an upper level deity like Althena. What was said in the interview, and what we ended up seeing in the game still feel like two different things. Remember, it says they had two crystals in the draw up, but removed the one intended for Althena. Who's to really say that this is not an example of changing Lucia's overall abilities and role.

I agree that as a member of the Goddess Tribe, Lucia has her own place and job to do with the Blue Star, but I am still not sold that she is an upper level god. Without the supposed link that she needs to be on the Blue Star to be fully powered, she is presented as a lesser member of the Goddess Tribe compared to Althena, who had her full power no matter which planet she was on.

I'd also go so far as to say Lucia is the more compassionate of the two. Althena destroyed the Blue Star. When it was Lucia's turn to do the same to Lunar, she didn't. Call it weakness if you want, but I'd call it compassionate, even if it looked like she faltered.


Now I disagree with that perspective. Althena's actions, SSSC/EBC related, seem to be done in a last ditch effort to stop Zophar. At the time, she had no other choice but to unleash her full power in hopes of stopping Zophar. When it was her time to make that choice, she did not have the advantage Lucia has. Lucia is working with more knowledge of the true Power of Humanity thanks to the experiences of Althena/Luna. Basically, Lucia was able to make an informed decision, Althena did not have all the facts when she had to make that devestating choice. I don't see that as a difference in compassion.


When the chips are down, Althena will void Life, as it's been phrased. Lucia...will not.


Um...no. See above. And you are still seeing more there than there really is.


Though, in light of the new evidence, I have to wonder if she needed Althena's power, or any power but her own to put Life back in the Blue Star. If Lucia is to the Blue Star as Althena is to Lunar, then she already put the majority of her power into restoring the Blue Star, so she was never at full power in the first place on Lunar. She left the Lion's share of her power as a Goddess 'at home'. Taking on Althena's power, then, made her keeper of Lunar as well as the Blue Star. With the power goes the responsibility. But unlike what Althena did to Lucia's home turf, Lucia could not bring herself to return the favor...and instead chose to spare humanity.

...and humanity repaid her kindness in full on disc 3.


Once again you are adding uknown evidence to the very little that interview gives us. There is no positive link between amount of power and being on Blue Star for Lucia. That was a theory presented by JWL, which has been expanded by thoughts of G1.

And using your own odd logic, this proves that Lucia is still weaker than Althena. We have full proof from all games that Althena has all her power despite which planet she's on. If Lucia, as you claim, can only have her full power on the Blue Star, then she is indeed a lesser god than Althena, who has power anywhere. She is even a lesser god than Zophar, who can draw his dark powers from anywhere as well.

And as for the destruction of the Blue Star...again, my reply to G1 covers that.

Fixing to head out, but in regards to putting life back on the Blue Star, I don't think that's Lucia or Althena's doing. That power is being stored up in the Blue Spire (which unfortunately was nixed in the remake). There's a scene in the original where Ghaleon kills Hiro as they approach Pentagulia for the second time. Lucia is torn between completing her mission and saving Hiro's life. Ronfar persuades Lucia to save Hiro, in what I consider one hell of a character-booster for the priest-turned-gambling man. Lucia eventually goes to the Blue Spire to resurrect Hiro using a small amount of the power there. Ghaleon himself told Lucia that "if you give me the secrets of the Blue Spire..." which Lucia scoffed at. So, IMO, it's the power of the Blue Spire that eventually restores the Blue Star. At least, in the original.


I was going to bring that up, but you have nicely.

...Hmmmm. Actually, now that I think about it, in the remake, what channels power back to the Blue Star was Althena's Fortress instead of the Blue Spire. She points it out in the FMV where Lucia tells the story of Althena zapping the Blue Star. The problem, of course, is in the remake, Zophar EATS Althena's Fortress, and hence all the accumulated power in it, which completes his resurrection. Yum.

So in the remake, there's nothing to work with but her own power and Althena's. And, of course, Hiro who chases her to the Blue Star. The medium of transporting power to the Blue Star was munched by Zophar, so...



What on Lunar are you talking about?

I just plugged that movie in on my PS2....and not a single line Lucia says says a thing about the Fortress of Althena being a conduit to transfer power back to the Blue Star...where the heck do you get this stuff from?? Hell, the Fortress is not even mentioned or shown in the movie. And in the original games, there was no such thing as the Fortress. Once again you are making stuff up to fuel your arguements.

Now, after watching this scene, I do note a few interesting things based on FACT.

1- Lucia's recollections seem to give the feeling that she was awake and witnessing the entire war with Zophar on the Blue Star. However, as she remembers it, she says that the people called upon Althena for help...not Lucia. If Lucia was the Goddess of the Blue Star, then why did no one call upon her?

2- Lunar is lifeless until after the Blue Star is nuked. Althena is said to have created the sanctuary of Lunar for the survivors. This shows me that the creation of Lunar was an after thought, and a result of her Final Solution attack. Up until then she had no intention, it seems, to populate Lunar, which I see as strengthening my stance that Althena was the top dog Goddess of the Blue Star.

3- (and most interesting) Lucia's final "While I..." line, in addition to the being left behind junk, basically implies a feeling of being the one left behind to safe guard and watch over things. I get the feeling it is indeed her job to oversee the revitilization of the Blue Star once she emerged (on schedual that is) from hibernation. She has the knowledge and the power to make sure that Life on the Blue Star was normal...but I don't think that would make her the Goddess of the Blue Star, persay. More like the care taker.
Free your mind and let your dreams fly, -me

User avatar
Alunissage
Goddess
Posts: 7355
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:31 am

Post by Alunissage »

[note: written before Roas's above post]
Bah, you're reading too much into the interview.

Lucia and Althena have the same type of power. Lucia's is different from those of the rest of the party...look at the spell names, as I've pointed out before. It does not mean they have the same degree of power. We never see Althena as a normal party member so it's impossible to say that just because Lucia is powerful in the beginning she's as powerful as Althena is. Nor can you use Ghaleon's taking over as a comparison, because Althena was in human form with human limitations -- Luna isn't doing what Lucia is. Lucia calls on Althena's light to shine forth, not hers...therefore she's not as powerful as Althena.

Althena is keeper of Lunar because that's where humans are. It isn't at all strange that she would be the one to deal with the Blue Star instead of Lucia -- their roles as keepers of the Blue Star and of Lunar would be after then, when Althena led her people to the refuge. They appealed to her to save them, not Lucia. Lucia was given the less important task of waiting on the Blue Star for a few millennia (less important because obviously Lunar is perfectly self-sustaining on its own and it isn't really necessary to return ever), because she's the less-important and less-powerful one.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the first reference I ever saw to Lucia was in the SSSC Vane Library, which says that a girl was left behind...definitely puts her into the lesser role, as the house-sitter. I don't think their relative powers are tied to where they are at all, since Althena first created Lunar (or made it habitable); it wouldn't make sense that she was therefore more powerful there than she would be on the Blue Star. And as pointed out already, it's Lunar whose power is to go to reviving the Blue Star, not Lucia; that's what the Blue Spire is for.

And while Lucia may have hesitated because she didn't want to destroy her friends, that's not exactly a calm, measured, intelligent decision. It's emotional distress, because she's a child in way over her head; she's shaking with nervousness even before that point in the conversation. Althena obviously didn't make a spur of the moment panic decision, and unlike Lucia she saw a way to preserve humanity AND confine Zophar. Lucia doesn't see the two as being possible, which is why she fails so spectacularly. How can you assume that Althena showed no compassion, or even less compassion, in her choice? Read the description of the scene in the guide. "Cut to a HORDE OF MONSTERS. They roar with pain and despair, begging Althena to end their suffering." The monsters, not just the non-monster humans. And "the people of the Blue Star cried out for solace."

Also, look at the last line of that scene: "Althena had left the Blue Star to safeguard the humans, while I..." Althena clearly isn't just the keeper of Lunar.

(I see Roas has written a long response while I was writing this. Well, I'll post as is and then read it.)
Last edited by Alunissage on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Roas Atrades
Black Dragon Wizard
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:36 pm
Location: Prian, Galadia

Post by Roas Atrades »

Alunissage wrote:(I see Roas has written a long response while I was writing this. Well, I'll post as is and then read it.)


We both basically said the same thing :)
Free your mind and let your dreams fly, -me

User avatar
Alunissage
Goddess
Posts: 7355
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:31 am

Post by Alunissage »

Hehe, yep. Though I think we've had practice; I remember bringing up the bit about humans appealing to Althena rather than Lucia at the Shrine once, though not the context. I would assume you were involved in that as well.

Lucia says something about the power-gathering part of the fortress in-game right before the movie, by the way.
http://www.lunar-net.com/ebc/screens/screens47.php
After the scene she says, "I remained on the Blue Star, waiting in solitude...for the time when I could visit the revival machine." Sounds like her primary purpose was to go press a button.

User avatar
GhaleonOne
Ghost From The Past
Posts: 9079
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:59 am
Location: Not of this world...

Post by GhaleonOne »

http://www.lunar-net.com/ebc/screens/screens47.php

You guys could always try looking through those screens there. if that information was in the remake, it's probably in that part of the game (or possibly something is said in the Star Dragon Tower). Worth looking through.

Also, I didn't notice that I didn't quote AngelAlex in my last post (it looked as if I had written what he had). I edited it so that it's quoted now, in case anyone was confused.
-G1

User avatar
Roas Atrades
Black Dragon Wizard
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:36 pm
Location: Prian, Galadia

Post by Roas Atrades »

Alunissage wrote:
Lucia says something about the power-gathering part of the fortress in-game right before the movie, by the way.
http://www.lunar-net.com/ebc/screens/screens47.php
After the scene she says, "I remained on the Blue Star, waiting in solitude...for the time when I could visit the revival machine." Sounds like her primary purpose was to go press a button.


Ah, he said it was in the movie, which is what I instantly went to since my PS2 is 2 feet to my right. I was wrong, but if evidence is going to be presented, it should be accurate from its source.

But still. All this evidence promotes the perspective we are sharing that Lucia, despite what is said in the interview, is more a servant of Althena than an equal.
Free your mind and let your dreams fly, -me

User avatar
Angelalex242
Legendary Hero
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Lucia's Fortress

Post by Angelalex242 »

Well, Zophar's a smart guy. And like any devil, he's quite capable of perverting the past just enough to make it seem like there was no other way out. She may have originally thought she could've pulled the trick Althena did, only to be tricked by Zophar. Zophar likes to taunt her with, "The gold is within your feeble grasp, take it" etc.

...Then again. Althena brought the humans to Lunar on the Ark...Althena's Fortress. It's possible everyone she was going to save was already on Althena's Fortress when she pushed the nuke button. The heiroglyphs suggest the Dragons don't need the Fortress to make the journey between planets, however.

If she hadn't had that, it's possible she wouldn't have had anywhere to put survivors of her power either.

The first thing Zophar does is eat the aforementioned Fortress to take that option away from Lucia. She can't just say 'okay, everyone into the fortress, I'm gonna nuke...' the Fortess is gone. And there certainly wasn't time to build another.

The issue may be more one of planning and foresight then actual power.

Thus, if I were comparing D&D style, perhaps Althena simply had greater Int and Wis scores, rather then more Divine Ranks. And probably more Experience levels. You don't learn much hibernating in a crystal, after all. Zophar is likely the same...with 80 or so ranks of Bluff.

Besides. Althena has her weakpoints too. Mindcontrolled by Ghaleon, apparently killed by Ignatius, the whole Jian loving her and going without in the end type thing...that was all Althena messing up. Althena needed the Dragons and Dragonmaster to protect her.

The position of Dragonmaster is one Lucia never bothered refilling. Also, her powers are signficantly more offense oriented then Luna's were. Even Luna's Dark Song just sickened and weakened people. It wasn't the annihilating power of Plasma Rain.
Don't blame me, Lucia promised me lots of snuggles and cuddles if I would be her PR guy.

Image

User avatar
GhaleonOne
Ghost From The Past
Posts: 9079
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:59 am
Location: Not of this world...

Post by GhaleonOne »

Two quick points though...

...Then again. Althena brought the humans to Lunar on the Ark...Althena's Fortress. It's possible everyone she was going to save was already on Althena's Fortress when she pushed the nuke button. The heiroglyphs suggest the Dragons don't need the Fortress to make the journey between planets, however.


This brings up a great point actually. This fits my vision of what happened at least. I still maintain that it felt like there was some planning involved before Althena removed Zophar from the Blue Star (and it does show her compassion, that point I concede). Though I still like the original model that the Blue Spire was holding all that energy secretly over the years. And I found it very interesting Ghaleon knew of it.

The position of Dragonmaster is one Lucia never bothered refilling. Also, her powers are signficantly more offense oriented then Luna's were. Even Luna's Dark Song just sickened and weakened people. It wasn't the annihilating power of Plasma Rain.


In Luna's defense, she was in a human form, and didn't even know she was the Goddess Althena. Her songs had an amazing power to them (lifting the mist in Legend and I think SSSC).

On a side note, I think the four Dragons may even be more powerful than Althena or Lucia. It's not Althena that Lucia calls to her aid when Zophar first appears. It's the dragons. And there's enough evidence that points to the fact that the dragons may even be older than Althena or Lucia.
-G1

User avatar
Alunissage
Goddess
Posts: 7355
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:31 am

Post by Alunissage »

Ah, but when she gets Althena's message, she doesn't call on the dragons then -- even though she now knows that their power is restored, as we see in the assault on Pentagulia. I think it more likely that the Dragons were also fixtures of the Blue Star originally and so she calls on them recalling them from that past time. Not that this actually disagrees with your idea, of course. One point of interest, though, is that in the opening pic of Genesis -- the only thing in the game I think feels like it belongs in the series -- is that it shows Althena dispatching the four dragons over the barren surface to terraform it. We thus have several accounts of how that happened. In EB, the prologue says that she made it into a garden first and then had to use that for the humans when the Blue Star became untenable. In EBC and elsewhere, Althena made Lunar habitable as part of the exodus. SSSC and maybe TSS say that the first Dragonmaster helped her do it. These aren't all necessarily incompatible, but it would be interesting to gather together all the accounts of the origin of Lunar as a habitable place and see how much can be reconciled.

Regarding Ghaleon knowing of it, note that Lucia also says that the seal in the Mystic Ruins could only be opened by herself, Althena, or Ghaleon. Despite what we know of Ghaleon's origins, there seems to be more to him than just the special Mazoku thing. Of course, both of those points were in the series before his backstory was fleshed out by Funato. He was a priest...probably higher-level than Jessica or Ronfar. *shrug*

I made the same point about Zophar possibly lying to point out that Lunar might not have been in as great danger from Lucia attacking him as he said. If you admit the possibility of one, you have to admit the possibility of the other. ;) And again, you simply cannot compare Althena's weakness -- from strength of character, in the remake version -- to Lucia's, which really is weakness of character. In SSSC she was deliberately crippling herself. In Genesis, so little makes sense that it may as well not be there; clearly she's not killed, but what does happen is completely opaque. For all we know that may have only zapped her back to Searis in the shape she'd already been in. In TSS she's in her routine human incarnation, and the backstory Shiva kindly translated from the guide (which is recapped in Damon's library) is that her previous human form had gotten old and weak, so vulnerability as a human is not unusual. We never see Lucia do the same thing, so we can't compare.

The purpose of singing to make people sick in Pao is never explained. It's pretty much there to show Luna turning into Dark Althena more gradually; in TSS it was Xenobia who caused the sickness. In neither case is it clear why Pao would be under attack at all, though in TSS it's probably random Vile Tribe malice since they're unequivocally monsters there.

User avatar
Angelalex242
Legendary Hero
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Lucia's Fortress

Post by Angelalex242 »

Well, if Dragon Song stands as evidence...and it's not clear it should...the whole point was rather potent example of Althena not getting it quite right.

Then again, she gets it right in SSSC.

I think the point I want to make is, Althena didn't get right the first time either. She had to mess up and learn a few times...from Dragonsong, before Dragonsong, after Dragonsong...from the 4 Heroes story...before finally getting it right with Alex.

Lucia was in a crystal, what chance had she to learn? She had one chance to get it right. Considering she had no practice, she got it right on the first try regardless.
Don't blame me, Lucia promised me lots of snuggles and cuddles if I would be her PR guy.

Image

User avatar
Kizyr
Keeper of Knowledge (probationary)
Posts: 8320
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2002 7:36 am
Location: Marius Zone
Contact:

Post by Kizyr »

Roas wrote:That's good source material, which lends some interesting thought to the whole issue. But like you say, G1, if Lucia is the same as Althena, they do a pretty poor job of showing it. In almost all ways, in both versions, Lucia is definitely giving off an servant like air in her emotions/actions concerning Althena. Only when she sees her mistress is gone, does Lucia act on taking up the full power.

...

Lucia has always been refered to as the Guardian of the Blue Star, even as the Princess of the Blue Star. No doubt she's a member of the Goddess Tribe, blue hair alone is a give away, but despite what G1 shows in that Q&A snipit, I agree they do a poor job of answering/showing just what level Lucia is on in the deity heirarchy. Going by what my eyes have seen, and me ears have heard, I always get the feeling she is on a demi level.


A lot of the cause of Lucia's 'weakness' has to be related to the relative weakness of the Blue Star vis-a-vis Lunar. I agree, Lucia always did seem like an underling of Althena, but the same way that the dragons are really corporeal manifestations of the magic elements, it's likely that the goddesses take on the characteristics of their own worlds.

Lucia's been asleep for a long time, same way that the Blue Star has been asleep for a long time. So it's reasonable that she's simply confused by everything. The only thing she knew by then was Althena--and even then, she didn't know things like the legend of Dragonmaster Alex, that Althena quit her cycle of rebirth, and even that Althena loved song and dance.

By the way, the EB novels are really good at explaining background things like this. Reading through them now is giving me a lot better grasp on the characterization and motivation of each of the characters. And, a lot of the idea of Lucia being a full-fledged goddess, albeit a very weak one now who doesn't know a whole lot about modern-day Lunar, is pretty prevalent in them. That's where I'm deriving most of this, since it's freshest in my mind.

Angelalex wrote:Though, in light of the new evidence, I have to wonder if she needed Althena's power, or any power but her own to put Life back in the Blue Star. If Lucia is to the Blue Star as Althena is to Lunar, then she already put the majority of her power into restoring the Blue Star, so she was never at full power in the first place on Lunar. She left the Lion's share of her power as a Goddess 'at home'.


You lost it at the "she already put the majority of her power into restorying the Blue Star" part. That much contradicts directly with both the game and the novelization.

Lunar's purpose is to gather up and save the energy needed to restore the Blue Star. If you played the Sega CD version, there's one scene where Lucia and the party go to a room in the Blue Spire where this energy is being gathered, and she explains as much. The novels, also, say explicitly that the purpose of Lunar is to gather magic energy to one day restore the Blue Star. (Oh, and not having played the game isn't much of an excuse; you can flat-out ignore this information if you want, but you'd have to at least acknowledge that the actual storyline contradicts with this theory.)

That goes a pretty decent way towards explaining why Lucia sees Althena as a superior, in this case. Althena is the entire reason why Lucia is still around, why the Blue Star is still around, why humans are still around, and why one day the Blue Star will be revived.

Angelalex wrote:Lucia was in a crystal, what chance had she to learn? She had one chance to get it right. Considering she had no practice, she got it right on the first try regardless.


That actually hints at one reason why I like Lucia more than Althena (yeah, I said it). Lucia was naive and made mistakes. A lot. Often. Even though she was hardheaded when trying to understand humanity, those flaws made her more human than Althena. Now, Althena in human form was quite human-like; Lucia in her regular form is already human-like.

Perhaps a lot of that has to deal with how she's a much weaker goddess than Althena. Whether or not that was always the case, that's another issue entirely (that deals with a lot more evidence than just the games), so I won't get into it just yet. KF
~Kizyr (they|them)
Image

User avatar
GhaleonOne
Ghost From The Past
Posts: 9079
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:59 am
Location: Not of this world...

Post by GhaleonOne »

That's why I can't wait for your summaries of the EB novels. :P
-G1

User avatar
Angelalex242
Legendary Hero
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Lucia's Fortress

Post by Angelalex242 »

I see.

Then, by your logic, when the Blue Star is revived in its entirety, Lucia would regain her strength up to its original maximums, with or without the addition of Althena's power?

As, if the Blue Star is restored, Lunar then becomes a barren world, unfit for human habitation...again. Althena's power may even become defunct at that point...the power source...humanity...left her world and went to Lucia's world. Now...The Blue Star is a heck of a lot bigger then Lunar. So the Blue Star's repopulation up to the size of modern day Earth would be a whole lot of power to draw on.

But as the Blue Star grows, Lucia becomes less and less clueless...she's now had time to learn from the whole Zophar thing plus Hiro staying with her for the rest of his natural life.

In short, over time, she may well lose her imperfections that were evident in Lunar.
Don't blame me, Lucia promised me lots of snuggles and cuddles if I would be her PR guy.

Image

User avatar
Roas Atrades
Black Dragon Wizard
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:36 pm
Location: Prian, Galadia

Post by Roas Atrades »

By the way, the EB novels are really good at explaining background things like this. Reading through them now is giving me a lot better grasp on the characterization and motivation of each of the characters. And, a lot of the idea of Lucia being a full-fledged goddess, albeit a very weak one now who doesn't know a whole lot about modern-day Lunar, is pretty prevalent in them. That's where I'm deriving most of this, since it's freshest in my mind.


Okay, Kiz, but do the novels actually say her power is relative to the Blue Star? You're the only source on this, so I'll take your word for it.

Then, by your logic, when the Blue Star is revived in its entirety, Lucia would regain her strength up to its original maximums, with or without the addition of Althena's power?


He never said that. Lunar is perfectly capable of storing power for the Blue Star and keeping itself going.

left her world and went to Lucia's world


Here is one of the things that you seem reluctant to let go of, despite what's been shown and explained. There is no "Althena's World" and "Lucia's World", or more precisely, these lables cannot be pasted on Althena. They are both Althena's worlds. The games, aaaaaall of them, show this to be true. Lucia may or may not have her strength linked to the Blue Star, but Althena's Power was something tied into both worlds.

Like it or not, these worlds were Althena's dominion. Kiz's knowledge of the novels may clear up Lucia's deity status, but I think there is almost next to no doubt that this is Althena's world, and Lucia is just living in it :P

But as the Blue Star grows, Lucia becomes less and less clueless...she's now had time to learn from the whole Zophar thing plus Hiro staying with her for the rest of his natural life.

In short, over time, she may well lose her imperfections that were evident in Lunar.


Lucia's emotional and mental evolution has nothing to do with the Blue Star's strength. Just as Althena did, Lucia is and probably would continue to interact with other people and simple grow as a person. I don't know how you would possibly relate the relative strength of the Blue Star to her brain and learning abilities. Whether or not she and the planet have a symbiotic relationship via powers wise, I highly doubt it would be related to her mind.
Free your mind and let your dreams fly, -me

User avatar
Alunissage
Goddess
Posts: 7355
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:31 am

Post by Alunissage »

I think Angelalex is just sore at all the talk of how much Lucia screwed up, bringing him to claim that "she got it right the first time". :P There is no way that her confrontation with Zophar -- either of them -- can be "getting it right". Things didn't happen correctly at the end because of her, it was because of the humans who had to rescue her. Hiro and co were already wailing on Zophar even when he was using her attacks, before she broke free. She was pretty much useless.

We don't see Althena as a goddess, except in the EBC flashback and that bit in Dragon Song in which she was clearly not fully herself, so there's no way to judge how human she was or wasn't under more normal circumstances -- any more than you can, say, judge Lemia's character by what you see in TSS or even SSSC. You absolutely cannot say that she repeatedly "didn't get it right" because there's no purpose given for her human incarnations and they may well have done exactly what they were supposed to. The only data point is the extremely flawed DS, which leaves out more than it answers. And to a lesser extent the TSS backstory (which suggests to me that an earlier rise of Zophar is what the Four Heroes dealt with). And so? Althena isn't omnipotent or omniscient. That doesn't make Lucia any less a screw-up. Honestly, can you see Lucia having the resolve if all of humanity were pleading with her to stop Zophar even at the expense of their entire world? Especially since she's rather taken with Lunar and its soft flowers and deadly snakes and whatnot. She doesn't have the nerve. She was nervous and hesitant even before getting to the recording of Althena.

We also don't know how much experience Lucia had before she went into the crystal. She was around for the death of the Blue Star, and she already knew Zophar and knew of the Dragons...so she had experience which still did not prevent her failing with Zophar. More than anyone there she knew what he was, and still stupidly fell in his trap.

At least you're now acknowledging her flaws and being an apologist rather than an advocate. I leave you with this thought: If the point is that Lucia is more human than Althena, doesn't that make it ever more likely that she also will choose to live as a human...and die as one?

User avatar
Angelalex242
Legendary Hero
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Lucia's Fortress

Post by Angelalex242 »

Not at all.

The Blue Star is on the upswing, and the dutybound girl was STILL the same dutybound girl who ditched Hiro at the end of the game to return to her duty. How long does it take to get all the humans off Lunar and to the Blue Star anyway? 50 years? 100? Her task might not be completed in Hiro's lifetime.

What about when it is completed?

Althena didn't put down the reins for several thousand years on Lunar. Lucia, with duty, may exist for a good 5 or 6000 years before somebody convinces her life isn't worth living alone anymore.

Of course, this would be a flaw too, but Lucia is exhibited to be rather hardheaded about things.
Don't blame me, Lucia promised me lots of snuggles and cuddles if I would be her PR guy.

Image

User avatar
Roas Atrades
Black Dragon Wizard
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:36 pm
Location: Prian, Galadia

Post by Roas Atrades »

Angelalex242 wrote:Not at all.

The Blue Star is on the upswing, and the dutybound girl was STILL the same dutybound girl who ditched Hiro at the end of the game to return to her duty. How long does it take to get all the humans off Lunar and to the Blue Star anyway? 50 years? 100? Her task might not be completed in Hiro's lifetime.

What about when it is completed?

Althena didn't put down the reins for several thousand years on Lunar. Lucia, with duty, may exist for a good 5 or 6000 years before somebody convinces her life isn't worth living alone anymore.

Of course, this would be a flaw too, but Lucia is exhibited to be rather hardheaded about things.


What?

You have no idea what happens after that final scene in the Epilogue. How do you know Hiro and Lucia did not return to Lunar? And just because the snow storm around that spire on the Blue Star stopped, that does not mean the Blue Star is healed.

Remember, Lucia woke up EARLY. Does it say anywhere in the game or the novels (Kiz will have to answer that part) that the Blue Star is ready for habitation?

And who says the people of Lunar are going to go back to the Blue Star? Ever hear of people having lives and roots in their homes?

And since you brough it up, I find it funny that you have forgotten that Zophar DID consume the power that had been stored for the Blue Star by Lunar in EBC, and Lucia used some of it in EB to save Hiro. With all that stored power gone, where is the power that is going to restore this habitable Blue Star you claim is ready for the "duty bound girl" to usher people unto?

And if the Blue Star was ready...why was Lucia back in the crystal?

And you still never answered where all the power Zophar stole went...because no one ever reclaimed it after the battle.

Once more you are skipping over tons and tons of blatent facts prsented to us in promotion of your beliefs.
Free your mind and let your dreams fly, -me

User avatar
phyco126
Dragonmaster
Posts: 8136
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 3:06 am
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

Post by phyco126 »

No way I'm going to be able to reply to what I might want to reply too (I mean, two pages of lengthy intelligent posts >_>.) So I'll just stick to this.

JWL wrote:You might say that she's weak since she was weak enough to be cursed by Zophar, but Althena was weak enough to have her mind taken over by Ghaleon.


Althena was only weak because she was in a reincarnated form, and implied that she was to remain in that form. Luna barely any memory of being a goddess, so it was probably far easier for a very well educated and powerful mage to turn her mind.
Image

- "Sometimes life smiles when it kicks you down. The trick is to smile back."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests