Working Designs is no more

[segaboy7]

wow, I really don't know what to say. Its really sad how WD kinda got screwed by sega and then Sony. The fans are truly going to miss them.

[Alunissage]

Sony is not just a scapegoat here; there were very definite and specific things it/they did which slowed things down. There were many factors involved in games coming out late, and generalizing it as lackadaisical does not really reflect this. I'm not arguing the point that delays hurt the company; that is undeniable. Just the characterization, which is perhaps at odds with your other statement that "there is no one side to this story".

[Rune Lai]

What happened to Working Designs wasn't unexpected, though it is something of a misfortune. Despite the best of intentions, it's still a business world out there and the marketplace can be an unforgiving beast. I wouldn't pin the blame on Sony really any more than I'd pin the blame on Sega back in the day. Whatever Sony does or did affects all publishers, not just WD.

The end result, whether one looks at the release schedules or the console manufacturers, is that WD could not survive the current marketplace. It is lamentable, but again, not unexpected.

At this point I would just be grateful for what they did do and not what they had yet to do. As one of my net friends pointed out to me, if not for Lunar, I would not have met all of you, and that would have been a pity.

[Rivercrab]

But it still makes me wonder why WD didn't consider GBA and DS games. I'd say PSP as well, but I'm not sure how much of Sony's stance would effect titles for it like it does the PS2. But there are definately enough titles of WD's type on the DS and GBA that would have been awesome to bring over.

I thought the exact same thing when Lunar Legend and Dragon Song got passed off to Ubisoft. In addition, there's bunch of cool Japanese handheld titles being released every month. The DS library here is really hurting for some good RPGs and WD would've been perfect to fill that void. Of course, there's no point in me speculating now, and it's always easier to say what should've been done after the fact. I guess I'm in the "bargaining" stage of WD depression...

[keele864]

I'll miss WD. I would have loved to see Dragon Force PS2 and Goemon, especially Dragon Force. I think Sony just lost a customer. I want to play MGS4 and FFXIII on the PS3, but I also really wanted some more obscure JRPG's from WD.

I couldn't get into the Arc Collection, and haven't even gotten around to picking up Growlanser. I would like to, but probably not for a while still, and likely it'll have to be through Ebay.

Personally, Growlanser is a much better SRPG than Arc Collection, even if it is shorter. I found it to be one of the best games of last year; I had quite an addiction for a month or so. Even if you didn't like Arc (I myself got to the last dungeon of Arc II, but was intimidated by the infamous four-hour final boss sequence), you might very well love Growlanser. Just make sure your PS2 can read blue-bottom discs.

Actually, I'd say that Growlanser is probably my second-favorite SRPG, below FF Tactics. I hope someone picks up Growlansers IV and V, but it seems unlikely.

[GhaleonOne]

Regarding FFXIII, I could see it going multiplatform.

Though regarding the Lunar portable games: It may not have been WD's choice. It's not known if Vic passed them up or they didn't have the rights to it, and were outbid. Who knows. It's moot now, and really, even with WD's touch, DS still would have sucked. And Legend is another remake of the same game done numerous times. I kinda understand that.

One small response to Rune though...

Whatever Sony does or did affects all publishers, not just WD.

Sony seemed to treat publishers differently based on how much money was thrown their way though. I've heard that Konami and Capcom have gotten some of their games out because they're much bigger publishers. WD just isn't big enough to influence Sony's decisions like a Konami or Capcom could.

[Rivercrab]

I'm pretty sure that's true. Big publishers have been allowed to shovel out crap at an alarming rate, whereas WD hasn't been able to get through to Sony in what seemed like forever. While it's still unclear exactly why, Vic offered a quick insight just a short while ago:

http://workingdesigns.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118917

So according to him, the release schedule was not the issue...and though he said, "Sony has made it clear that they do not want the details of their dealings with any publisher made public," earlier today, this recent comment kinda spells out what happened.

Either way, I lost a little respect for Sony today, who I used to be a major fan of. I'm in a very confused place right now, and the next generation of consoles is starting to look a lot less appealing to me. I pray to God we see some awesome storylines/translations in the games to come, but I doubt they will have the same time and love put into them as WD did.

[HuBBsDoctor]

I am sad that WD is gone, but this should also prove a point that Victor was stubborn on some of his business ideals. Only choosing to bring certain ps2 games over and then fighting tooth and nail with SOny on their stance of 2D games, not publishing for Nintendo Platforms, disapproving of the xbox but then changes his views suddenly and wants to bring xbox 360 rpg's out here. The man is a genius and is hard working, but his again stubborn business practices are what lead to WD's downfall.

[Rune Lai]

Sony seemed to treat publishers differently based on how much money was thrown their way though. I've heard that Konami and Capcom have gotten some of their games out because they're much bigger publishers. WD just isn't big enough to influence Sony's decisions like a Konami or Capcom could.

Money does talk, but it's important not to overlook demands that have been placed on other publishers for similarly styled games. Ys VI's character sprites were given a 3D makeover for the US (because they were originally 2D and therefore dated) and that was a Konami title.

[Roas Atrades]

Okay, come on. Aren't we possibly getting a little over dramatic here?

Disappointed in Sony? Getting depressed about WD being gone?

I mean it is just business, and business is not always pretty, but do busieness practices really change how good games will be? Granted, sticking with principles is important, but just because Sony's distributing tactics may be overly aggressive and show favoritism, that does not change good games when they come out.

And like others have said, it's not like WD was releasing game after game, making their presence constantlly felt. Yes, Growlanser was great, but it was only one of a couple games released over the past few years. I mean, let's be serious and admit that WD was not really affecting our contemporary gaming lives as much as they did in the past.

I would not trade my past with WD for anything. They gave me Lunar, and I got to play classics like Dragon Force. Now, Lunar was not my first RPG like some of you, but it is in my top 3 and will never be moved from there.

But because of all that, I am not really all that broken up that WD is gone. They just weren't much of a factor anymore.

In all honesty, without it being mentioned, I would not have given WD much thought at all. In many ways, it seems to me they already were gone before this.

Now, I'm just saying I don't feel the need to get all droopy and depressed over this, and I am not about to change my console plans for the next year because of this.

I'll still wait and see what the 360 will have to offer in the future before buying, but the possibility of RPGs on it makes me excited.

I'll also still buy my PS3 several months after the launch once the second wave of games is released.

In the end, WD is gone, but this does not change my gaming life all that much.

[keele864]

It may not have been WD's choice. It's not known if Vic passed them up or they didn't have the rights to it, and were outbid. Who knows. It's moot now, and really, even with WD's touch, DS still would have sucked. And Legend is another remake of the same game done numerous times. I kinda understand that.

I remember Vic saying something about not being impressed with Lunar DS sometime before it came out, very shortly after the game's announcement I think. That he saw the game that early suggests to me that he probably at least had the option of localizing it, but declined to do so.

Okay, come on. Aren't we possibly getting a little over dramatic here?

I'd point out that about half of Lunar-Net board members are long-time members of the WDMB and that some personally know Victor Ireland. It's not "just business" because a lot of people have followed WD for several years, and others have been helped by WD in some way or another. I'm not in this group; I'm relatively new to L-Net and the WDMB, but many others are.

[GhaleonOne]

I remember Vic saying something about not being impressed with Lunar DS sometime before it came out, very shortly after the game's announcement I think. That he saw the game that early suggests to me that he probably at least had the option of localizing it, but declined to do so.

He said he passed on Lunar Legend, not DS. I do know what you're talking about though.

Okay, come on. Aren't we possibly getting a little over dramatic here?

Disappointed in Sony? Getting depressed about WD being gone?

Considering they paid for half of my college, not to mention this site (nor rpgfan.com and gamesarefun.com) wouldn't exist, I don't think it's over dramatic at all. Depressed? No. Saddened? Yeah, quite a bit.

Edit - Meant to throw in another response...

I'll still wait and see what the 360 will have to offer in the future before buying, but the possibility of RPGs on it makes me excited.

I'll also still buy my PS3 several months after the launch once the second wave of games is released.

I'm with you on the 360 thing. Just because Vic and co. might be putting out a few games on it, I still want to wait and see what comes to it first. The only game I'm interested in currently is Perfect Dark Zero, as me and my friends had more fun with the N64 one than any other game when we'd get together. I still might get a PS3 eventually, but my main beef with that is still shoddy hardware and being burned in the past. Once the kinks are worked out, if there's some good games, I might be willing to pick one up a year or two later. I'll likely be interested in Revolution if they continue the main series, but we'll wait and see what they announce first. All the innovation in the world means nothing until they show me some games.

No matter what system though, it'd be good if the WD folks did at least find jobs with other publishers or start a new company up.

[Roas Atrades]

Considering they paid for half of my college, not to mention this site (nor rpgfan.com and gamesarefun.com) wouldn't exist, I don't think it's over dramatic at all. Depressed? No. Saddened? Yeah, quite a bit.

That's what I meant in my first post, that some of you, those who have been with Lunar-NET and other sources from a number of years, had a lot more invested and that I can understand the deep feelings you're having. I, as said, am just a neutral observer who merely purchased the games from the beginning with TSS, so that's as far as my allegiences went. As long as I got to play the good games, I was happy. It was never my goal to enter the industry nor get involved with any politics concerning it. I'm just a simple gamer, heh.

I just feel a few newer members, and perhaps younger ones, are painting a bleaker picture than necessary.

This is just the way the world works. We can hold and cherish our memories, but we have to be willing to move on and accpet whatever comes next and make the best of it.

I'm just trying to maintain a neutral, rational perspective is all.

[Alunissage]

Yes, Roas, we get it. You're not bothered, it's just a business, you think it's ridiculous to be be upset because you moved on long ago, etc. Now would you mind desisting telling other people how to react and let us respond as seems appropriate without taking the bloody self-appointed role of telling people how the world works (as if we don't know) and by extension what is and isn't "rational"? The younger and newer members haven't asked for your repeated attempts to pour cold water on everyone and may even be capable of making up their own minds. And hell, I saw the writing on the wall firsthand years ago, in a more personal way than anyone else here, and you can bet I don't have an idealized view of the company or illusions about what was happening, but I'm still shaken. Like having an elderly, failing relative suddenly worsen with the end in sight -- which news I have also been dealing with since approximately 26 hours before learning of WD's closure -- you can know damn well it's happening and inevitable but it doesn't make the news pleasant. It has nothing to do with being "rational" or "neutral". To extend the analogy, having someone who only knew my relative by reputation from a distance tell me that there is no reason to be upset about impending death because it's just what happens and I should have moved on and cut my ties when he first started getting ill because all the good memories were in the past just like he did isn't sensible and worldly and rational; it's being self-righteous and pompous and would probably provoke a punch in the nose in my current mood. Obviously WD's demise is a whole different scale from my grandfather's (and my view of WD is a lot more mixed) but the parallels are there.

I understand your detached viewpoint and I do not fault you for having it. But in all three posts so far you've come across as chiding the children here who don't really get the way things work and saying they're silly for being bothered because that's just the way things work in business (and very satisfied with yourself for being above all that) and they all need to be educated on this point. Once was enough. WD hasn't affected your [gaming] life in the past few years, but that doesn't have anything to do with how other people 'should' react. You =/= everybody.

[Parn]

I'm not one to kick a man when they're down. I may not have seen eye to eye with Mr. Ireland, but it sucks that the company is gone, even if I haven't purchased their games since Magic Knight Rayearth. It's another blow to the little guys trying to make things work in a world full of giants, and less games that make it stateside, regardless of how long it took to get them localized.

[Roas Atrades]

Yes, Roas, we get it. You're not bothered, it's just a business, you think it's ridiculous to be be upset because you moved on long ago, etc. Now would you mind desisting telling other people how to react and let us respond as seems appropriate without taking the bloody self-appointed role of telling people how the world works (as if we don't know) and by extension what is and isn't "rational"? The younger and newer members haven't asked for your repeated attempts to pour cold water on everyone and may even be capable of making up their own minds. And hell, I saw the writing on the wall firsthand years ago, in a more personal way than anyone else here, and you can bet I don't have an idealized view of the company or illusions about what was happening, but I'm still shaken. Like having an elderly, failing relative suddenly worsen with the end in sight -- which news I have also been dealing with since approximately 26 hours before learning of WD's closure -- you can know damn well it's happening and inevitable but it doesn't make the news pleasant. It has nothing to do with being "rational" or "neutral". To extend the analogy, having someone who only knew my relative by reputation from a distance tell me that there is no reason to be upset about impending death because it's just what happens and I should have moved on and cut my ties when he first started getting ill because all the good memories were in the past just like he did isn't sensible and worldly and rational; it's being self-righteous and pompous and would probably provoke a punch in the nose in my current mood. Obviously WD's demise is a whole different scale from my grandfather's (and my view of WD is a lot more mixed) but the parallels are there.

I understand your detached viewpoint and I do not fault you for having it. But in all three posts so far you've come across as chiding the children here who don't really get the way things work and saying they're silly for being bothered because that's just the way things work in business (and very satisfied with yourself for being above all that) and they all need to be educated on this point. Once was enough. WD hasn't affected your [gaming] life in the past few years, but that doesn't have anything to do with how other people 'should' react. You =/= everybody.

Geez, Alun, take it easy.

You don't have to jump down my throat. I'm not telling anyone how to feel or react, just stating my own feelings on the matter, just like everyone else. I'm not trying to start anything, only putting out a particular view on the subject. There's no need to go at me with guns a blazing.

Clearly you don't like the way I say things most of the time, but this is not the place to draw a line and start something.

So just let it go, I'm only trying to state my opinion not tell others how to feel.

[drumlord]

roas, you post with an amazingly elitist attitude. Comments like "I, as said, am just a neutral observer" just reek of pomposity. You are not a neutral observer. Last I checked you were a human with feelings and opinions just like everybody else. Your posts were not merely your opinion, but were rather an attempt at belittling what others had posted. You directly stated that people were taking their thoughts too far and were overly affected by this. If that isn't telling people how they should feel, I'm not sure what is.

And I don't often agree with Alun, so take this post seriously

[Roas Atrades]

roas, you post with an amazingly elitist attitude. Comments like "I, as said, am just a neutral observer" just reek of pomposity. You are not a neutral observer. Last I checked you were a human with feelings and opinions just like everybody else. Your posts were not merely your opinion, but were rather an attempt at belittling what others had posted. You directly stated that people were taking their thoughts too far and were overly affected by this. If that isn't telling people how they should feel, I'm not sure what is.

And I don't often agree with Alun, so take this post seriously

Well, I'm not sure what to say.

I am honestly trying to just present a neutral point of view. If the both of you are taking my views as elitest, arrogant, pompous, or anything else all I can say is that was not the intention. I don't see it as elitiest, I simply see it as trying to be emotionless in order to perceive all perspectives equally. I'm not trying to degrade of belittle anyone's feelings or be rude.

Please don't call me pompous or elitest. I'm not and I'm not trying to be.

[drumlord]

I'm not calling you pompous or elitist, but the fact that you took that from my post should be indication enough as to why people took your post as preaching what people should think.

And I think most of us are well aware of business and how business works. If a business goes into the red for too long, it dies. We don't need a lesson on simple economics. If somebody posted that a famous person died, would you come on to talk about how humans only have a limited lifespan and that the human body is frail and many things can kill it? Probably not.

I know you aren't pompous and arrogant. But your posts were clearly a bit too preachy for some of us here. If there's any forum besides WD's own that is filled with people who have strong feelings about WD's games, it's this one. That's why your posts come off bad here.

[GhaleonOne]

I'm not one to kick a man when they're down. I may not have seen eye to eye with Mr. Ireland, but it sucks that the company is gone, even if I haven't purchased their games since Magic Knight Rayearth. It's another blow to the little guys trying to make things work in a world full of giants, and less games that make it stateside, regardless of how long it took to get them localized.

Total sidenote here, but Parn, just wanted to say I think that shows a lot of character. I know you and others have had your issues with Vic and/or WD, so that's pretty cool. I saw JWL did the same on Rune's board. Kudos to you guys, knowing the history of all the things involved over the years.