Women's March on Washington.

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Jenner
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Women's March on Washington.

Postby Jenner » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:58 pm

Hello, if you weren't aware there is a big protest and march planned for January 21st. Hopefully many women and their allies will show up to make a mob sizable enough that no amount of cunning camera placement can mask our immenseness. The main march is happening in Washington DC so if you live near DC I invite you to join me in impotently and powerlessly screaming at the white men in the driver's seat who are so secure in their brutally voter suppressed and gerrymandered districts that they can repeal the ACA, cut Medicare and Medicaid, Defund Planned Parenthood, cut Social Security, and eviscerate Welfare, WIC, SNAP, Section 8, etc without consequence! Because we really need to let them know that there are a whole lot of us who really would prefer they not do that! And the people who are going to get monumentally screwed over by these jerks also need to know that a lot of people are out there and don't want them to do that! So even though these total -Fatal Hopper- are going to continue to be safely voted in to their comfortable positions of power and influence regardless of our objection what we are doing is still important!

The DC protest is gathering at Independence Ave SW & 3rd St SW Washington, DC 20024 and you can read more at https://www.eventbrite.com/e/womens-mar ... 9428287801

But if you live nowhere near DC or don't want to travel to DC you can still march because sister protests are being organized across the country. Find your local protest here: https://www.womensmarch.com/sisters
if there isn't a march local enough to you being organized I strongly encourage you to organize your own. Preferably as close to your local representative's front lawn as you can get or in an equally visible place. (But if you get near your local rep's lawn and they're one of the insensitive pricks in support of this garbage you can take a -Dragon Diamond- on their lawn!*)

Just remember that while you and I are screaming, chanting and holding up signs real people will be suffering and will continue to suffer after we go back to our warm homes feeling just so good about ourselves that we let our voice be heard! Please do more. Write and call your local, state, and federal representatives and let them know this is not okay. Donate to worthy charities or volunteer if you can. Get involved in your community and please, please, please vote. Vote in every election, not just the Presidential Election. Because while you sit at home playing video games and watching Netflix or whatever other people are voting for jerks who are going to keep pooping on the poor, the minorities, and the other underprivileged people. That might not affect you now but I assure you, that stink will travel up if this keeps building.

See you at the protest.

*don't really poop on your local representative's lawn. Not because they don't deserve it but because it might get you arrested.
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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Imperial Knight » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:10 am

It seems Chicago had one of the bigger marches. Certainly it was clear even on the El train there that turnout was going to exceed expectations. Only encountered two pro-Trump people there. Everybody just ignored them. Overall it gave me hope that people can stay active and engaged. We're certainly going to need it.

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Arlia
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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:30 pm

...repeal the ACA, cut Medicare and Medicaid, Defund Planned Parenthood, cut Social Security, and eviscerate Welfare, WIC, SNAP, Section 8, etc without consequence!


Those things cause poverty, you know. It would be great if they disappeared. And I say this as a very sick woman who won't ever be hired to support herself, and who's had her life ripped apart more than once for the sake of what a man wants to do with his johnson. Those programs give people an excuse not to live life right. We should support each other because we're a community, and because you have a strong family. Instead, neighbors don't know each other, and families hate each other, because those unions aren't necessary under a nanny state that will take their place if you're allowed to make bad decisions. It will be very hard, but, that's what's best. We could do it, you know.

Find your own strength and purpose. Don't lean on the government.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Alunissage » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:44 pm

I think you have cause and effect reversed here.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:17 pm

Strong family unit = If someone gets sick or hurt, you take care of them. People help raising babies, so they don't have to go to day care or have a bad babysitter, and there's enough emotional and financial resources. No one is making stupid choices because they didn't have enough emotional stability. If something bad does happen, you don't break everyone else's stuff and riot, and protest, and act like a screaming toddler because you were taught how to act strong during a hard time. You have a secure foundation.

Weak family unit= If you're sick or hurt, it's the end of the world in medical bills, and everyone you know has "got no money, sorry." There is no consequence for a poor lifestyle because you can always go to the nanny state, so, virtue is discarded, giving you no foundation, and you bark at it when it's needed, because that's not what you understand. This is no one's fault in particular, nor is it any one gender's influences fault. We're a society starved of vital information, struggling to live the best life we can.

It's not a simple affair. But, that's the best info available on the subject, from what I can find. It's pieced together from many places. You can disagree if you like, but, I don't like to ignore clear damaging behavior when I see it.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Jenner » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:43 pm

Arlia, you misunderstand where this "damaging behavior" is coming from and people are protesting because their civil rights and very personhood is under attack by a government that has been taken over by fascists and white supremacists. This "damaging behavior" you speak of is the result of crippling, often generational, poverty and the many ills that come with it. People make "stupid decisions" because they are poorly educated, their schools are under performing and under funded, their teachers over worked and their class sizes too big. Their parent (parents if they're lucky but most of them only have a single mother) is working 1-2 jobs and barely has an hour a day to spend with their kids. They can't really give their kids emotional support and the only secure foundation they're given is a roof over their heads and, if they're lucky, food on the table. Speaking for myself, my mother was poor and on welfare. We were lucky if we ate one meal a day, sometimes we had to go hungry because there just wasn't enough to go around. This "weak family" that you speak of is endemic to poverty. A "strong" family is a luxury reserved for those with more resources. The poor do not have enough resources, they can't even pool their resources to squeak by because they do not have enough. Someone gets sick or hurt? They don't have healthcare because you wanna do away with the ACA. So that anti-biotic or cast is costing them like $700. They don't -Fatal Hopper- have that Arlia, and their relatives don't either. Everyone age 16 or older is usually working, Arlia, they don't have time to babysit the babies that women were forced to have because certain folks (*gives you a pointed look*) put a bunch of -Fatal Hopper- who wanna defund Planned Parenthood, ban abortion, shut down virtually all the women's health clinics, and demanded they be taught only about abstinence in power. Now barely anybody -Fatal Hopper- knows what consent is! (This is horrifying, you should be horrified.) There are not enough emotional and financial resources there just aren't. There is no secure foundation. I was the only one of my mother's children to graduate high school and only the second person on my mother's side of the family (and first on my father's side) to go to college. We had been poor and under educated for generations until me. What -Fatal Hopper- foundation is that, Arlia? You are blaming the victims and it is sickening. They didn't ask to be born poor, this isn't a choice. This is not willful ignorance. They are made stupid, kept stupid, and systematically oppressed and if you honestly think there is not a racial or gender component to this atrocity then you are the idiot. That is despicable and your privilege is showing.

Arlia, I am not sure what your situation is or what's going on with you. You're being quite vague so if you'd like to elaborate I'd be very interested because I know a thing or two about living on public assistance (I was on public assistance for about 6 years) and I might be able to help you. As it stands right now, you're sounding like a goddamn MRA with this whole, "it's not one gender's fault" nonsense and stop it. Based on your posts you're probably either a working class or middle class person who got broadsided by bad luck and is now in a bad place. It happens, welcome to capitalism. I am assuming this because of your lack of understanding of true poverty. If you actually knew a thing about being poor before you suddenly became poor you probably wouldn't be espousing this toxic Reaganesque garbage. But I might be wrong, and I'm willing to admit that. A lot of truly impoverished people have embraced Reagan's Bootstraps myth. Regardless, I don't know if you grew up poor or if you're lower working class or if you were middle class and then got unlucky and now you're struggling or what but I'm just gonna drop some real truths on you right now in hopes of educating you. I know, even as I type this, it's probably futile but I'm just hoping you're smart enough to take this in.

First, like I said up top, not everyone has the luxury of having a good family. "Strong" stable and supportive families have the resources to, at worst, barely provide for everyone. The truly poor rarely have this. "Strong" families have the time to dedicate to being there for their children to give them support and encouragement. The truly poor can rarely afford to do this. Because they are supported, because they are baseline provided for, "strong" families do not turn on each other and begin to steal from, exploit, and cannibalize one another to survive the way so many poverty-stricken families do. If your family is "strong" and supportive, chances are you're not really poor because a "strong" poor family is very rare.

While I was on disability, receiving food stamps, and having my housing subsidized through Section 8 all the poor people I met were working at least two jobs just to make ends meet. They barely spent any time with their kids, they didn't have time to babysit for other relatives because they were spending 14+ hours a day working. Any days off they had they needed to rest and recover. Unsupportive, "weak" families are endemic to poverty because it is the nature of poverty that creates them. There is no foundation to be had, no stability to be made, because they are all trapped in desperation mode just struggling to survive. They do not have the luxury to plan long term, to save, to have nest eggs, to build a support network. Those kinds of things come with resources and stability that they just can't get short of obscene luck (like winning the lottery.) People who manage to break the cycle and get out are rarely, if ever, in a position to reach down and pull the rest of their family up. They have often moved into areas where the cost of living is higher and the expenses are greater so their increased wealth actually isn't as substantial as it seems. What little they can give their family is not enough to truly help them without the added buffer of the "nanny state" you so callously revile.

I'm gonna give you a close look at true poverty: Me. I was making a little under 12k a year ($975 a month on disability) and these were my expenses (literally pulled my budget out of my folder, these are 100% accurate numbers):
Rent: $390 ($730 unsubsidized)
Internet: $30
Cell Phone: $100 (covers me and my mother, see I'm already helping my family.)
Car Payment: $166
Car Insurance: $130
Electric Bill: $90
Gas: $40 (To drive to therapists, dentists, doctors, college, visit friends/family, get groceries, etc.)
Total: $946 leaving me $29 a month to live on.
I had occasional expenses like cat food ($40) and cat litter ($20) but I usually got big bags that lasted a few months so I was able to save up for it. And, if not for food stamps, I would not have been able to get food. But yeah, just scraping by and saving $29 dollars a month which I spent driving from OH to VA to visit Kizyr once or twice a year.

Oh, I did I mention I am disabled, right? I cannot work because I have crippling mental illness and my Prozac prescription for my major depression costs $10 with Medicaid. And the Ritalin for my ADHD costs $10 too and my therapist and psychiatrist's copay was $15 oh wow look I can't even afford to treat my disabilities. But I'm sure my high school drop out, drug abusing older brother and high school drop out and barely making above mimimum wage younger brother will pitch in and help me out... oh... oh dear. Maybe my mother with fibromialga on disability too but who also has thousands of dollars of debt can give me some money... no that won't work. How about my step-father (may he rest in peace) who was collecting retirement from being a teacher for 40 years and is paying child support on 5 children he can't even see because his ex-wife spitefully moved several states away after he was awarded 50% custody. Oh and he also pays the mortgage on their old house because his ex-wife is the devil and he has several chronic health conditions and his insurance is garbage. The cost of all his prescriptions combined with all this other costs means he can't even afford to help my mom, let alone me. But yes, my family is weak and it's totally because of the nanny state. Without our dependence and reliance on it we could definitely survive on our own. Our crippled asses just need to toughen up and pull on our bootstraps a little harder. [The thumbs up emoji goes here and it is 100% sarcastic.]

The only reason you feel you are currently being screwed by the system is because the system has been getting progressively poisoned and sabotaged by conservatives. It was never designed to be the kind of system which one must remain on to survive (some exceptions here, I'll get to that so bear with me.) It was designed to support people so they could go to a trade school or college and then find good paying employment upon completing their training or attaining their degrees. But the amount of good, high paying jobs and their own limited ability to move to the areas where they are (because they cannot save any money) trapped them. (I hear you used to be able to save money back in the 60s-early 80s before the cuts really started getting obscene and the powers that be started punishing you for trying to claw your way out but that's not the case any more.) The extent of failure rife through poverty was underestimated and the ability to break out of poverty and get stable only becomes more and more difficult to achieve as the social programs are stripped further and further back and the punishments for growing bank balances increase. And when you have three kids but can only afford to feed one or two of them they're gonna start tearing each other apart. And when you only have enough money saved up to send maybe one of your kids to college in the vain hope that they might get a better life you've gotta choose which one has the most potential knowing full well it's a snowball in hell and that you're condemning the rest of your equally deserving children to crippling poverty. And if someone is like me and they're -Fatal Hopper- up so bad they cannot work they have nothing but the system to keep them alive. (Unless you would rather I starve or freeze to death, highly ethical of you if so.) Those are the people who are on the system for life, disabled folks like me.

Here's what it takes to break out of poverty:
1. Luck. The single, most important thing you need to break out of poverty is to get lucky. You usually need to get lucky more than once, good luck.

2. Beng born white and cis male: This is like the golden ticket. Bonus points if you're straight. Being white and (cis) male lets you bypass a lot of the other hurdles and threats in place that stymie other less privileged people. You don't have to worry about getting accidentally pregnant, you don't have to worry about others feeling like you're "over represented" somewhere because you're the standard. Most doors are open to you. The system is set up to prop you up. Women are socialized to sacrifice themselves for you and protect you from failure. Good job winning the womb lottery.

3. Talent, skill, or natural giftedness: While by no means a guarantee, being talented, skilled or naturally gifted greatly increases your chances of success. Being white and (cis) male greatly increases the chances of these merits being noticed and attributed to you instead of any other status you might carry (like Jewishness or Asianness.)

4. Connections: Being able to network, meeting or knowing someone who knows someone who can get the right eyes on you or speed up your progress is immensely beneficial.

5. A decent education. Poor people are often in underfunded and overcrowded schools. They do not receive adequate education. They have huge gaps in their education and are missing some core fundamentals. They are often not prepared for college, many cannot even pass the entrance exams to get in. Those who do get in often have to spend hundreds of dollars taking remedial courses to just get the basics before them can even start taking courses that actually count towards their degree.

6. Being abled. If you are disabled in any way, mentally or physically (or both) you are so, so deeply -Fatal Hopper-.

Okay this post is long and you're probably not even going to read it but you are wrong and don't understand. It's not weak families or the nanny state keeping people down. It's the system.
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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:16 pm

I'm sorry your mother perpetuated a system that's not doing you any favors, and I'm sorry you're sick. I'm trying to tell you that I don't want it to be this way.

While I was on disability, receiving food stamps, and having my housing subsidized through Section 8 all the poor people I met were working at least two jobs just to make ends meet. They barely spent any time with their kids, they didn't have time to babysit for other relatives because they were spending 14+ hours a day working. Any days off they had they needed to rest and recover.


Why did they have kids, then? What a callous thing to not better your life before you procreate. That's an urge in your body that wants to be fulfilled, yes. They wanted to start families of their own to complete their own missing pieces. But, they didn't think first. They cared more about themselves rather than the big picture. Those kids are for them to feel whole, not because they were ready to be parents.

It's not me that doesn't care about you. That was your parents. If they're in such a sorry state, they could have said no to their biological and emotional desire and fought for a better life for their kids before they procreated. They didn't because they didn't want to. They refused to see a way out. You can either continue wallowing, or get up. Same as your brothers don't have to be drug addicts; that's their choice.

This is the consequence; the judgement of their poor decision. That is life. Mercy is worthless if no improvement is striven for. Do you understand that? You can't live the same life they live, or it'll never end. That's what needs to stop. Your parents relied on the state instead of figuring it out themselves, thinking they had the right to do so, and you suffered. And your parents did this out of their own free will. That's what you really can't get past. You're mad at men because you don't/didn't have a father, or not much of one, I would admittedly assume.

Until you make your own emotional strength, you're not going to get anywhere. You don't like poverty? You have endless free resources to help you get out. You obviously have the internet. Stop looking up feminist articles, and start looking at how to get money in your position. Work from home, stop playing by so many rules. Do what you have to. Hopefully the economy improves with our new president, and things will get better regulated.
I'd take care of you if I could, but, there's a million other problems that are trying to get sorted first. I'm doing all I can.

Let me clue you in on something. Men and women in a society reflect each other, like a mirror. You don't like something men do? It's a reflection of you. Men don't like women? It's a reflection of them. Their arguments against each other are actually identical at their core.

Judgement is considered masculine, while mercy feminine. You're angry with me because you think I don't see your side of the story. I do. I simply have the judgement mindset, and I think critically, and strive for a better world. I'll be hated for being harsh, and it was mercy's job to notice that I'm struggling, too. There's to be a union between those two things, and they're fighting, instead, at great cost to us all.
This is currently showing up in society as a giant male vs female dispute.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Sonic# » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:36 am

Jenner, I found your list towards the end really useful. Being someone of a middle-class background who had a lot of people around me who missed one or more of those marks, I appreciate how poverty can be hard to work one's way out of. Not impossible, obviously, and I think you'd admit that people who can work against the system to better themselves are praiseworthy. But it's certainly more difficult than it has to be, and often for reasons that go beyond that individual.

Arlia, I think you missed the mark on Jenner, and need to respond to a couple of points in particular.
Why did they have kids, then? What a callous thing to not better your life before you procreate.


It seems contradictory to simultaneously say that the lack of strong family structures is a problem and to display a disregard for life created. To ask "Why did they have kids, then?" fails to address several layers of Jenner's narrative about structural poverty:

1. Most basically, what I hear you saying is that not everyone deserves to have a family, to have kids. At the same time, you urge that poor people would be better off if they valued family structures. This freedom allows you to utterly diss Jenner's family (when you don't know what they tried to do and not do) while doing nothing to actually enable people to have a strong family structure. The end result is that you blame people for having something you deny them the opportunity to have.
2. One answer to your question is that underfunded schools in poor and often segregated areas fail to adequately cover sex education and family planning. Another is that conservative policies tend to close down places that offer contraceptive care, leaving women and men with fewer means to regulate their sexual desires. If you don't teach people or give people the resources to manage their reproductive health, then you shouldn't be surprised that they have kids when they can't afford it. I see Jenner talking about that when she alludes to the gradual dissolving of the social safety net over the past 30-40 years. Contrary to your claim of "endless free resources," the internet doesn't give you an IUD or the benefits and guidance of good sex education, or even the education required to find good information amongst all the chaff.
3. One thing that poor people get a lot and don't need is judgments from people who don't know their situation. I see this a lot with people who complain about some person who simultaneously had a cell phone and used food stamps. The cell phone, they complain, is a luxury good. If they have that, they shouldn't be so poor that they need food stamps. Those assumptions miss a lot about that person's situation: having a phone number is necessary to have a job or do most financial transactions; cell phone plans are likely a more expensive but necessary item of that budget; these days a cell phone is often cheaper than a landline, and easier than changing landlines whenever they move. There are a number of reasons why this or that decision (phone number, getting fast food) make rational sense in their situation.Jenner shared her budget, which is frankly more than she should have ever had to, and you still 'splained her own situation to her. I think she knows her own situation better than you or me.
4. Oh, and you also basically said that Jenner shouldn't have been born. That's a really -Dragon Diamond- thing to do.

Let me clue you in on something. Men and women in a society reflect each other, like a mirror. ...
Judgement is considered masculine, while mercy feminine.


There's something baffling about your gender views as you've presented them. It's baffling enough that, when you're having a discussion woman to woman, you have to claim that you're being "masculine." The implication is that Jenner is being feminine, and she ought to learn to judge herself and others more like you. That seems to impose an unnatural and unwarranted division of qualities, since both "judgment" and "mercy" are neuter qualities. Rather than understanding them for what they are, you put them into bubbles or cloisters. They're tautological because they require readers to believe in such a strict gender binary for the comparison to even make sense. Otherwise, we could look at all the ways judgment and mercy are given without ever thinking gender is involved, and probably come to some different conclusions (like Jenner has) about why providing a basic social safety net (from a level of government or from private groups) is perhaps something not best described in terms of judgment or mercy. For instance, I would say that people are not guilty of being poor, and lending assistance is not a form of mercy for original sin. Rather, I'd say there's an ethical obligation to provide some basic institutions (education, access to food, healthcare) that help level the playing field, so even the least fortunate among us have a baseline quality of life. I wouldn't call that mercy.

This isn't meant to express direct criticism of your anti-feminist views here, though obviously if this were the time and place I would criticize them. I'm pointing out why I find this particular rhetorical appeal ineffective. It basically imposes an entire system of thinking without checking to see if I'm on board with strictly dividing judgment and mercy at all, let alone dividing them into genders.

I'll be hated for being harsh


Harsh advice and direct criticism can be useful if it's your place to offer it. In assuming things about Jenner's situation and taking the liberty to lecture her about how she shouldn't have been born, you weren't just harsh. You were disrespectful. Further, you were wrong to assume things about her you couldn't know, like that "you're mad at men because you don't/didn't have a father." So, no, I didn't hate your post (I admit I don't know you, and so I wouldn't hate you) for being harsh. I hated it for being so toxic to a fellow board member who chose to share some pretty intimate stuff about her situation. I hated it because it confused stands on issues (which I may agree or disagree with) with personal accusations.

And Jenner isn't blameless here. She said you sounded like a "goddamned MRA," after all. She assumed a bit about your views too, but I didn't see her assuming things about why you're poor. And she certainly said nothing that suggested you shouldn't have been born.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:50 am

I never said any such thing as she should not have been born. Certainly not. I said her parents weren't responsible. If she grew up afraid to change while locked in a bad system, clearly they were deficient in some are. I blame no one for that, I'm just trying to fix it. Are you the divine authority that says who is born where? Maybe people are just lining up to be born, and she simply would have been born somewhere else, and never would have known any different. I have no idea. Neither do you.

People don't have to have sex. Feels nice, sure, but, look around- sex isn't a toy. It can easily be misused, and frequently is. You know how I learned about sex? It was like someone showed me, as a child, a big, scary, loaded shotgun, and said, "Look how much damage this can do", and aimed it at an otherwise normal family, and pulled the trigger. And it obliterated that family. Guess what? I treated sex like a loaded gun for the rest of my life, because that's basically what it is. It's not there for you to feel good. Life doesn't care if you feel good or not. There's only one way about it, and if you don't respect it, BOOM.
I saw that on TV when I was a toddler. Are you telling me that people can't turn on the TV, and get an education about sex, and everything that it's capable of? You're JOKING.

Jenner wouldn't dislike men like that if she had men that she truly loved and respected in her life. I mentioned that as an assumption, because the alternative is, she has good men in her life, and simply chose not to respect them, and can't see them in the men she doesn't even know that she's harassing.

And yes, it is my place to offer criticism. You can't say things like "It's all men's fault" and "cis-gender" and things like that in front of me like it won't matter. This is a debatable issue, so, I'm quite free to share my opposing viewpoint. Especially because we're on a forum for a video game that, of all things, displays the role of gender in an ultimate sense. That's what Lunar is about.

There's something baffling about your gender views as you've presented them. It's baffling enough that, when you're having a discussion woman to woman, you have to claim that you're being "masculine."


You do understand that more than physical bodies have been known to have gender, don't you? That's discussed in Lunar often, which is why it's baffling to me that no one gets what I'm talking about. Why are ships called "she", after all? That was embedded into language for a reason. Both masculine and feminine traits flow through humans, and are necessary. For instance, when a woman is holding a baby, and caring for it, and breastfeeding if she chooses, you might say she's being feminine. That's a demonstration of being nurturing. However, if the child's father is dandling his baby, and caring for it in much the same way, he's considered being a good dad.
If you don't want to see it that way, you don't have to, but, I certainly didn't come up with that by myself. It's an ancient concept you should perhaps have more respect for.

So, if I say I'm being masculine in something, that might sound unusual, but, it's true. Even incredibly early in development, male children are shown to have interest in machine toys, and females are shown to have interest in faces or dolls. They're displaying their strength- men build things, and view things as mechanical, and non-personal, and women care for those things, and are more interested in emotion and thoughts, because that's what will make what he created into it's full potential. They're two parts of the creation of anything.

Do you know why we have feminism? Because something happened that made men tell women that men were more important- they build stuff, and don't need women. They told them that their strength was useless. Women responded by acting like men, and getting careers, and not supporting men. Men responded by pouting because they were being treated badly, because working women don't have enough energy for the relationships men want. Women responded by hating them and being frustrated, because all they've been doing is try to support what they wanted. Men responded by hating women back.

It's a mess. Look, I don't want Jenner to feel bad. I want her to be healthy, and have what she wants in life. I want people to have families, and all the things I mentioned. I just don't want them to get it from a bad source. My best mindset is that that will happen the best when everybody calms down, and this is fixed. No, I don't want Jenner to lose money she's relying on. I want a better system. This cycle will end painfully, but, end it must, and I'm trying to do everything I can to play my own part responsibly. You think poverty is just some unfortunate necessary cycle. Well, I don't. And if you're too weak to fight for that, I'll do my best for you, but, you won't show such hatred to something I love in front of me.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Kizyr » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:12 am

I'm going to be dismissive here, because sometimes sheer dismissiveness merits the same response. I'll let Sonic# and Jenner respond to whatever they choose to of course, but the remainder of your post was so mired in baseless assumptions about Jenner, backtracking, contradictions, sexist assumptions, and justifying it all by saying you're only laying down "harsh truths" instead of recognizing that you're being criticized for a complete refusal to understand someone else's situation (and instead, assuming that you know everything about their situation).

That doesn't merit a detailed response; it merits derision.

Case in point:

Arlia wrote:Jenner wouldn't dislike men like that if she had men that she truly loved and respected in her life. I mentioned that as an assumption, because the alternative is, she has good men in her life, and simply chose not to respect them, and can't see them in the men she doesn't even know that she's harassing.

Yeah, so as her husband, this statement is so completely ludicrous that it's hard to even find an appropriate response.

Just let it sink in that in one statement alone you made two assumptions (both of which were completely wrong), multiple erroneous assumptions based on those incorrect assumptions, and sailed on from there. The rest of the post is much the same.

...that isn't even getting into technical details regarding public policy. But there's no point discussing that here. KF

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:14 am

I know absolutely nothing about Jenner and her life except that she spits venom at strangers and encourages others to as well, so I responded accordingly. Are you proud of your wife for acting like that, and making a topic like this? You want her to be part of those riots? You want her to hurt other people, and risk getting hurt? I'm a woman, and I don't see fit to act like that. She's trying to take my voice from me, in that case. So, yes, it does matter to me. Don't even try to tell me it doesn't, even as her husband.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Kizyr » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:41 am

Arlia wrote:I know absolutely nothing about Jenner and her life except that she spits venom at strangers and encourages others to as well, so I responded accordingly.

So despite knowing nothing about Jenner, you seemed perfectly content to make a ton of baseless assumptions about her life, which were easily contradicted. That makes everything you say or conclude about her to be suspect -- you can't reasonably expect anyone to take you seriously after that.

Arlia wrote:Are you proud of your wife for acting like that, and making a topic like this? You want her to be part of those riots? You want her to hurt other people, and risk getting hurt? I'm a woman, and I don't see fit to act like that. She's trying to take my voice from me, in that case. So, yes, it does matter to me. Don't even try to tell me it doesn't, even as her husband.

You're damn right I'm proud of her. I marched with her and nearly a million other people in DC that day, and tens of thousands the week after (and the idea that it was a "riot" is laughable -- I was there, you weren't, but there are plenty of objective reports backing up my side here). She's been taking me to other events where we can meet with our representatives and talk with and support organizations fighting for our civil rights. We've been supporting one another through call-in and letter-writing campaigns. I've helped her with amplifying the voices of people who are marginalized; she's helped me with understanding the perspective of people who are in poverty.

We've been through a lot together, but in the last few months despite the hardship she's been more energized than I've ever seen. I'm more in love with her now than when we first got married. And I'll say a thousand times that I'm proud of her for acting like this, and will continue to support her.

You don't want to act like that? Fine, no one's forcing you to. And no one's taking your voice from you -- it's being heard here perfectly fine, but since it's so reliant on making false assumptions about other people, don't be surprised that people respond don't respond favorably. KF

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:51 am

Well, we all know about her life now, don't we? I didn't make it personal at all, I'm just on the other side of the debate, and I don't like hearing about how white men, who built the country everyone looks up to, and who's money you're so eager to take, "aren't being fair". Then she started telling me all about her terrible life, and why everyone should give her their money, because she's had it rough. Government money isn't free or fair, it means someone else pays for it. And I said I felt for her, but, this isn't the way to do it. You want to stop poverty? Cut off the hand that supports it. That's not cruel, it just makes people more afraid to act carelessly because they know there isn't a substitute resource. Oh, you wouldn't believe how quickly things would shape up without that safety net.

Tell you what- I work very hard to make sure I don't have to take anything from anyone else. I know I have no right to something I didn't earn. World wants I should starve? So be it, but I'd fight before I died. My life would be worthless if I'm just a sponge. What has your wife ever done but explain how much of a victim she is, demand from the world around her simply for being born, and spit on anyone who disagrees with her? Who is the "privileged" one here? You don't have the right to other people's livelihood, and you don't have the right to disrespect life itself and support a system that makes broken souls.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Imperial Knight » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:31 pm

Arlia wrote: I don't like hearing about how white men, who built the country everyone looks up to, and who's money you're so eager to take, "aren't being fair"


:roll:

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Sonic# » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:20 pm

I didn't make it personal at all, I'm just on the other side of the debate


You made it personal:

I never said any such thing as she should not have been born. Certainly not. I said her parents weren't responsible. If she grew up afraid to change while locked in a bad system, clearly they were deficient in some are.

I know absolutely nothing about Jenner and her life (editor's note: should've stopped there) except that she spits venom at strangers and encourages others to as well, so I responded accordingly. Are you proud of your wife for acting like that, and making a topic like this? You want her to be part of those riots? You want her to hurt other people, and risk getting hurt? I'm a woman, and I don't see fit to act like that.

Then she started telling me all about her terrible life, and why everyone should give her their money, because she's had it rough.

What has your wife ever done but explain how much of a victim she is, demand from the world around her simply for being born, and spit on anyone who disagrees with her?


Kizyr just explained how Jenner has done a lot more than that. But you refused to listen. And you just went on assuming things about her. How ignorant are you?

You don't deserve a further reply, Arlia. You've been so laughably wrong in so much of the stuff that you've said, and have shown a clear willingness not to listen, dialogue, or respect. You acknowledge that you make assumptions and don't know much, but you keep spouting off. And that's not about you being conservative; there are lots of conservative people who have fair priorities and avoid making assumptions and attacks left and right on other people. It's about you being a hateful person to the people you're talking to and about: Jenner, poor people, all that.

You're not worth my time.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:55 pm

Jenner made a feminist topic about blaming conservationism for poverty. This is indicated in her first post, where she blames white men for many problems that she'd held privy to. She says that people who disagree with her (even just government officials) deserve to have their properties vandalized with human excrement. That's racist, that's disrespectful, and absolutely not appropriate. I married a white man. I came from a white family, and I have a white dad and white brothers who all work hard. My dad's a veteran. You will not disrespect everything they've done in front of me. You're leaning on all of it right now, and it's about to be destroyed. I'm trying to prevent that from happening.

I haven't cussed at or been rude to anyone. Not that you've offered me the same. Feminism is dying a painful death, I suggest you wake up, because it's poison.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Sonic# » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:57 pm

I haven't cussed at or been rude to anyone.


:roll:
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Alunissage » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:20 am

There's so much here that I can't even begin. I'm inclined to agree with Sonic's last post; I can't imagine what you think being rude is if it doesn't include the underlined portions of his previous post. No, don't tell me.

For the sake of Our Viewers I'll just quote a few lines:

Arlia wrote:And I say this as a very sick woman who won't ever be hired to support herself, and who's had her life ripped apart more than once for the sake of what a man wants to do with his johnson.

Jenner wrote:Now barely anybody -Fatal Hopper- knows what consent is! (This is horrifying, you should be horrified.)

Arlia wrote:Why did they have kids, then? What a callous thing to not better your life before you procreate


Do you see how these things fit together? Rather a large amount of the time it's not the potential mothers choosing -- that is, consenting to -- become parents. Because "what a man wants to do with his johnson" has overridden any objections she might have to risking becoming pregnant... and I'm not just talking about rape and coercion, but about using contraception. IF they have access to it.

There are a number of other contradictions in what you've written, including what Sonic pointed out. Here's another one:
Arlia wrote:We're a society starved of vital information, struggling to live the best life we can.

Arlia wrote:Are you telling me that people can't turn on the TV, and get an education about sex, and everything that it's capable of? You're JOKING.


Why, yes, someone is saying that. You.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Arlia » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:33 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-5rxFDXW4E

Here. This will be my last post. The man isn't perfect, but he's one of the most studied I've ever seen, and you should respect that. I am right about this, and you are just plain wrong. My way is harder, but it is the correct one.

By the way, my "what a man wants to do with his privates" refers to a 20-something man getting it on with my 16 year old sister when I was 7. The consequences of her teen pregnancies that she had to deal with alone while he was busy being a loser would devastate our family for the rest of our lives, and she struggles to this day. So, I've seen sex equal poverty in otherwise well off families. Just keep it in your pants; trust me. I'd know.

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Re: Women's March on Washington.

Postby Sonic# » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:44 am

Arlia wrote:I am right about this, and you are just plain wrong.


:roll:

Alunissage wrote:There are a number of other contradictions in what you've written, including what Sonic pointed out. Here's another one
Sonic#

"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time


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