Halloween

[Nobiyuki77]

See, this is what Halloween is about, we got some treats and some.. *glances at Borgan*..tricks?

Best. Analogy. Ever! :3

[Alunissage]

Phyco, the thing is, even though the drawings are clearly enough not real, they reinforce the idea that large gravity-defying breasts should be normal, that they're a purely cosmetic choice (in the age of implants) with no consequences whatsoever. Let me share with you a quote from a comments thread at a blog I read:

To paraphrase Twisty, Ganza and numerous other blamers:

The patriarchy looks approvingly upon and rewards large breasts.

No, it really doesn’t. Getting breast implants means that you have fake breasts, not large breasts, and the two aren’t even vaguely related.

I am a 34DD, one of the most common cup sizes for silicone-enhanced porn stars and nude models, and you’d better bet that my breasts look nothing like fake boobs. Absolutely nothing. The natural shape of large breasts — real boobs, not gravity-defying silicone — is widely regarded in our culture as “saggy” and “disgusting” and udder-like and any number of other epithets. The natural motion of my boobs is supposedly horrifying; the fact that they don’t sit on my chest like two bowling balls makes me ugly, fat and cow-like.

The patriarchy rewards large breasts? Please. Not unless those breasts are unaffected by gravity, perfectly symmetrical, very round, sit high on your chest and don’t come with the other physical characteristics most large-breasted women have. In short, the patriarchy rewards an idealized, non-existent version of large breasts. Women with naturally large breasts are a niche fetish, somewhere between fat women and chicks who don’t shave.

I bring this up not because I think it’s particularly egregious that Blamers assume that the patriarchy rewards large boobs. It’s to point out that Yea Old P. is even more obnoxious and insiduous than you think — the patriarchy rewards and enforces a boobular standard that can’t possibly exist, period unless you have fake breasts.

In short, you can’t possibly live up to the ideal unless you mutilate yourself.

That's a little off the subject, but the description above would be apt for the drawings at the beginning of this thread, no? You may feel it's perfectly obvious what's real and what's fake, but that doesn't prevent most real women from suffering from that unreal standard of attractiveness, either from not conforming to that standard or by having expensive surgery to get there. You also get people like the guy on the WDMB who said that Lucia was more attractive than any girl he knew in real life -- which is to say he found a patently unreal two-dimensional character existing only as some pixels on a screen more attractive than anyone he could actually interact with. Her reality did not seem to be a factor in determining this.

ILMG (sorry, I seem to have forgotten your real name), I'm not sure what point you're making by posting the bromides.

[AnimeJei]

Okay, off the boobies for awhile How about this.. it's not anime.. cross between fan art and self protrait. Half my face, half Michael Myers (Halloween) and before anyone says "Which is you?".. looking at the screen I am the left.. smartarses anyway, it could be "controversial" in a sense since it's called "Evil Resides in Us All". It just shows we all have a little evil in us, what makes us good or bad is if we act on it or not. I hope you enjoy it, hate it, despise it!


ps. I want to work on it more and darken it as it has room for many improvements but I need to get more blending sticks and need more sleep.. so I might edit it soon...

[phyco126]

Anime, I love that piece. I actually thought that to myself (the whole, evil in us all bit.)

Alunissage, I understand the point you are coming from, I really do. Yet I just don't see the big deal or the arguement. Yes, research has shown that seeing makes believing, even of the non-real. Looking at pornography in general has shown evidence that men (and women) will be more likely to not feel as bad or care as much when a woman is abused, and are more likely to think it is okay to have sex with a 12 year old.

I personally would love to see this research in depth, but cannot, that info basically came from my psycology text book (Meyers, 2007)

And no, I don't feel like citing my source tonight XD

Anyway, yeah, still, I just don't see the point in argueing. The posting of these pictures certainly hasn't made me a cat/furry person nor am I anymore into large perfect breasts than I was before (in which I wasn't at all.) I look at these pictures, I see something fake.

As for finding a anime character more attractive than anyone I have ever seen, yes, I know that feeling. I am constantly attracted to drawings of cute girls, but I don't let that intefere with whom I find attractive and what not. There are plenty of girls out there that I know or have seen that I find attractive, I find my own girlfriend attractive (though I've been told by many she isn't )

Where am I going with this? I'm not sure, I'm horrible with debates.

Carry on, maybe I'll find myself next post.

Edit: Wait, does this mean I can find the statue of David offensive because he has a large man stick? =O





Just curious and no insult/offense/sarcasm intended.

[AnimeJei]

Thanks, it's fun to draw a little evil no and then.

About the guy liking a drawing/animated character more and saying it's more beautiful than anyone he has encountered. Well, for one that is his opinion and right.. In one sense I don't find much wrong with it because there's been people who love certain paintings and such and think it's the most beautiful. I mean there is a ton of self portraits of beauty, so since someone says this of an anime character it's weird because you think anime is a lesser form of art? I am just curious if that's what you are meaning. I don't know if that's what you think or not. Of course I don't think there is a less form of art.. I mean there is little 4 year olds selling their art work for thousands.. does it piss me off?.. sure it does! No, I'm just kidding. Anyway, off track there some... well in my opinion that person has a right to say that but I think (IMO) he hasn't encountered enough people in life yet then. Do I find certain art cute, beautiful, or eveen sexy?.. sure! They are creations just like we are. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I hear you phyco, I've had people tell me the same about a gf I had in the past *shrugs* She was beautiful in my eyes as we all have our own likes and dislikes..like I said it's in the eye of the beholder. ahh.. I am getting too serious here..lol

[Alunissage]

No, I wasn't meaning that anime is a lesser form of art -- not having much taste for it, I don't know nearly enough about it to make such a comment. I was replying to Phyco's comment that since a drawing is unreal, there's no concern about back problems or headaches from oversized eyes or whatnot. I was saying that this person I knew did not seem to be allowing for the unreal aspects of an anime drawing in comparing real people to her and finding them lacking. Real people don't have eyes bigger than their mouths, etc.

Tiresome as I find the evil=cool idea in general, I certainly find the work you just posted to be more artistic, both in concept and execution. The placement of the pupil in the face's right eye is a bit odd, though; it's too close to the nose to make sense with the rest of the curved lines around it.

[Nobiyuki77]

I was saying that this person I knew did not seem to be allowing for the unreal aspects of an anime drawing in comparing real people to her and finding them lacking.

... but I like my style.

[AnimeJei]

Thanks for looking, see I'm not all about boobies Yes, you are right.. I want to work on the eye more also I need to do more shading, I need to work on it a lot more when I get a lot of free time. Thank you for the comments and critiques =)

[Werefrog]

I was saying that this person I knew did not seem to be allowing for the unreal aspects of an anime drawing in comparing real people to her and finding them lacking.

I'm not sure if I understand this sentence. Are you saying that your friend compares people to anime characters and finds that real people can't measure up? Or are you saying anime's style is lacking? I like the former better, so I'm going to pretend that was the point (even though the more I read it the more that I think it's the latter).

If so, hasn't this always been a threat of media? Media presents things in an idealized fashion (in the case of anime and arguably most of film, this is idealized from the male perspective. See Laura Mulvey's gaze theory). It's pretty much impossible for reality to compete with the media. Hopefully, most of us will eventually realize that nothing can ever be as perfect as the events of The Christmas Carol or as perfect as one of Diego Rivera's Sueño de una tarde dominical or even as perfect as photographed shot with just the right light at just the right time. When that point arrives, we'll have to adjust our expectations. I know that's something that I'm still dealing with.

Media depicts dragons, whereas reality only gives us windmills.
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If your point was the latter, there were some really interesting ways that the aesthetics of anime was shaped by the funds that they had. In the early days of anime, the filmmakers couldn't afford to use the same techniques that say... Disney was using. For this reason, they had to come up with some clever ways to workaround their monetary limitations such as using a lot of people in robot suits since it allowed for making people look stiffer and less lifelike. I'm guessing that the big eye thing grows out of the same limitation. I have no evidence for this, but I think it's a pretty good educated guess. I doubt that the big breast thing developed out of this though (I'm guessing that was to get the seats in the seats).

[Alunissage]

Nobi, I was referring to Evaron, not you. Do you remember his initial outburst of Luciaphilia? I can rip into your own sense of reality vs unreality if you wish, but you might want to avoid it.

And Werefrog, yes, that IS the problem of media. My point is that even with the really bloody obvious markers of fakery he persisted in saying the unreal girl he could never, ever interact with was superior to the real girls he could. There wasn't even occasion for the minimal logic of "this woman's breasts are spherical, real breasts aren't, therefore I'm looking at fake breasts and can't expect the real women I know to look like that" because he already knew the entire woman was fake. And he still found her more attractive than reality -- that is, he expected a real person to be on the fake standard to qualify as attractive. Which, of course, happens all the time. That doesn't make it right.

[AnimeJei]

Oh and I didn't draw the last one because of the concept evil equals cool. I do it because evil is real, it's out there and can exist in anyone.,, and Halloween. 0 for 2

[Alunissage]

Halloween IS "evil=cool".

Also, you seem to have the idea that your art is about only what you think or claim it is.

[AnimeJei]

Are we talking about Halloween the holiday or the movies? No, that's an opinion.. again. Maybe Halloween doesn't equal coolness to kids, have you asked them?(maybe it means fun and candy?) The same for all ages. No I just state my frame of mind when I draw something.. I think I know best what I was thinking at the time I drew it. I can't and don't want to dictate what each person feels for a picture or a thought. But again you peg me drawing this because you seem to think my mind is evil is cool just like big breasts equals greatness. Sorry, I tend to respect others opinions and not force my own on others. (I feel like I am beginning to sound like a broken record in these post. )

[Werefrog]

Also, you seem to have the idea that your art is about only what you think or claim it is.

I think that a lot of artists have that misconception. Art is a two way street.

Also, Alun, how would you propose fixing the media's ability to create these unrealistic expectations? Is it enough to use more accurate images? Or should we educate students on the methods that the media uses to distort reality?

Personally, I think that some escapism is a good thing. (I think that we all feel that way, or we wouldn't be on an RPG board). The problem is when we expect reality to be as good as our escapism.

[Alunissage]

I don't have a problem with escapism per se. I have a problem with it when it consists of actions and viewpoints which would be problematic in real life, and when it overly influences one's real-life actions. The thing is, influence can be a hard thing to notice from the inside. You probably don't go consciously from "Mmm, curvy yet skinny girls in skimpy catsuits are sexy" to "Wouldn't it be fun if my girlfriend dressed up like that and pretended to be my pet" to "You know, she's kind of flat, she'd really look hot with bigger breasts" or "She could fill out the top half okay, but why doesn't she do something about those short legs and that thick waist?". Yes, I know that's an exaggerated and ludicrous example, but you see my point, I hope.

It would be nice to see more education about the nature of images and advertising. You'd think that sooner or later guys would be annoyed at being led around by the balls, as the use of sex for advertising implies, rather than being credited as any sort of rational creature. However, it's a prisoner's dilemma: as long as there's more to be gained by an individual for taking the easy way out rather than holding out and demanding respect in the form of changing the system, the system will remain, because individuals will work with it. I first saw that analysis applied to women submitting to male/societal expectations of appearances (high heels, revealing clothes, shaved legs, etc), but it applies to a lot of things.

So no, I don't really know what the solution is. Getting people to see that there is in fact a problem would be a start. Banning all people who claim to be artists from drawing anime-style until they're able to draw actual anatomy accurately might be another one. (Lunar-style it'd be How To Draw, Volume 6: Nipples For Beginners. Not to be confused with Child-Raising Volume 1 of the same title.)

And I was referring to Halloween the holiday. The fact that it's treated as a holiday with some element of fun in it supports the evil=cool idea pretty clearly given its origins. Possibly not so much for the children who aren't aware of the roots, but surely for the people across the bay at San Francisco's Exotic Erotic Ball.

[phyco126]

Wait, I thought halloween (Hallows Eve) was to celebrate the dead and to ward off bad spirits?

[Werefrog]

Wait, I thought halloween (Hallows Eve) was to celebrate the dead and to ward off bad spirits?

Wait, I thought Halloween was to give men a socially acceptable time to cross-dress.

[AnimeJei]

Wait, I thought halloween (Hallows Eve) was to celebrate the dead and to ward off bad spirits?

Wait, I thought Halloween was to give men a socially acceptable time to cross-dress.

You got me, I was gonna go as a geisha.. think my unshaven face will give me away?

[phyco126]

Funny, I have a picture of me dressed in a dress, compelete with make-up. People laugh. Then I see some prick who was popular in school dress even more complete as a girl and people think it's cool suddenly? I wanna smack someone for that. =P

Halloween means a perfectly good excuse to buy large quanities of the best candy bars (Snickers, Twix, etc.) to pig out on at home. XD XD XD

[AnimeJei]

Yep, the key work is "popular"... I think back in my school days I was inbetween the "regulars" and the "populars".. the populars were timid to even ask me for a pencil. I guess because then I was the shy silent guy.. maybe they thought I was a maniac and could snap any moment.. maybe they were right..mwahahah!

Anyway, hell yeah! I buy the candy and hope we have a low turn out with kids trick or treating.. if I am lucky I ride the night into Nov. 1 on a sugar buzz..