*adjusted*

[Werefrog]

I'll just say that I never really thought that Jessica was rude. She was just spunky, and anyone would have to be put up with a man with such an overbearing personality like Ronfar's.

Did you mean Kyle's? I don't think Ronfar was anywhere near Kyle's overbearing level of personality.

Aye. Opps. This thread is now officially the Werefrog is stupid thread. You're welcome, Nobi.

Just as planned.

[zqfmbg]

Nobiyuki, you're doing nothing wrong. You know that you're a good person. Don't let yourself be a victim of her insecurities. Perhaps she came from a family that threw a lot of sexism her way, perhaps she just feels ugly. who knows? Not really your problem, though. Don't be ashamed of being attracted to women. or ecchi drawings. Also don't think you're lecherous for drawing a womans chest any larger than Lina Inverse's.

Sometimes I think Alun goes way farther than I would with this stuff. I find myself in agreement with her basic point, though: why is it necessary to include "attractive" or "sexy" in the list of attributes for a female? I mean, Nobi's drawing is pretty much that... oh, here's an attractive female, and by the way, she plays games.

He is by no means the first person to do this. The Frag Dolls come to mind. Sure, they can destroy me in any given FPS. But their marketing seems to highlight the fact that they can fit into small T-shirts and stand around and look hot. The fact that they are gameplayers or were gameplayers to begin is secondary.

Alun's basic argument is essentially "why is it important that she be hot and provocative? why can't she just be?" The poor girl could be dressed up in different ways and put in different poses that still allow us to see that she's attractive yet have it not be the primary point. As it is, most people looking at his drawing are probably going to see the prominently-positioned loads-of-exposed-skin rear end first, and then notice the remainder of the picture. The same problem again -- she's hot, oh, and she plays games too.

[phyco126]

And strangely enough, it's also one of the reasons I just can't ever seem to get a girlfriend. I'm too nice to them, and all the treatment I ever get in return is a quick pat on the back while they go give themselves to some bastard who hits them twice a week and treats them like -Dragon Diamond-. As nice and respectful as I am to them, they tend to act like they don't want it.

Other men have called me a "-Plantella-" on several occasions. They tell me to just go over there and take them. That's what they want, they tell me. I wouldn't believe them and would try to earn respect and love by giving them respect and love. It has never worked once in my entire life. Not once. And I'm not some ugly bastard or anything. So then, the friends I don't believe go over there and just "take them" and voalla, they're completely taken. It's baffled me to no end on several occasions. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

Yup, been there, seen it, experienced it. You are not crazy, the fact is this happens all the time, and is really ticking me off. But that can be a story for another day.

Now then, I saw the original picture, and you know what? I see girls dressed like that everywhere. Even in wal-mart. Oh wait, did you hear the one about that girl who got kicked off a plane for being too sexy in that ultra mini-skirt? She had a play boy photoshoot after that. Yup. My sister dresses like that at home too, and sometimes when she goes out at night. Shoot, I even see 2 year olds dressed like that by THEIR mother or father.

Look, I am not sure why it is so difficult to accept the following:

1. Some girls/women DO dress like that. The more attractive they are, the less they wear. Maybe not in Kansas, or Washington D.C., or California, or any other state any of you reside in, but in Colorado Springs, it's a freaking fact. The more attractive they are, the less they wear. The younger they are, the more attractive they are, the less they where.
2. I fail to see how pants are better than showing fless. At least those shorts are baggy, despite being short. Better than the 90% of teens and 20s that wear pants so tight it hugs their rare end so tight you can see their crack clear as day THROUGH the pants.
3. Men are visually turned on creatures, and even more so due to social upbringing. I see a girl who has a very nice wear end, I WILL look. I WILL looking. Ultimately, I end up disappointed with myself, due to my lack of control. Not that it isn't possible, but even a article in a magazine by Focus on the Family admitted that guys are VISUALLY based men. Visually, we love to LOOK at women.
4. Normal girls don't have size As. Maybe size Bs, but it is fairly rare to see a A sized woman, at least in Colorado Springs. Normal girls like to dress up, usually in a very non-conservitive fashion.
5. Why are you blaming someone who is a male, thus visually attracted to women like many men, instead of all the women who DO dress like that? Why not attack the women who openly meet or exede that stereotype that only seems to exsist in the mind of us womanizing pigs?
6. Plain and boring, sorry, we don't notice that. A girl walks by, plain and boring. At the same time, a girl walks by in a bikini. Who do you think I am going to notice* first?

*A little honesty? I'm more turned on when I see an attractive girl in sweats or baggy pajama pants/shirts than if they where wearing miniskirts and bikinis. But I WILL notice the bikini and look far longer just from the sheer attractions.

Also, I *AM* a nice guy, and even I can't help but stare. Still, I don't fantasize about them in my head, aside from the whole "would love to date her" thoughts. I don't go to strip joints, I find them demeaning to the women who pick that for a carreer. I still end up feeling horrible for looking, even though I really can't help it. For the girls I know, I also do my best to be as respectful to them as I possibly can be, for they are my friends or whatever, and it dishonors them to do that.

[Alunissage]

It's late, so I can't really spend much time on this and will only make a few quick comments:

1) Nobi, just because you could have made her more explicitlly an object doesn't mean you didn't draw her as one at all. That's why getting feedback outside of your own circle -- or your own head -- is necessary, because no one is EVER as free of preconceptions as they think they are. (Actually, even though I wasn't intending to comment on the whole thing about being a "nice guy" and yet not getting the female companionship you wish, there's probably the same idea involved there. People who think of themselves as "nice guys" often think they're doing so much better than the "usual" guy that they don't realize how far they still have to go.) "Better" isn't the same "good", and your saying you could have done worse doesn't mean that you did OK.

2) B_G, one doesn't need to be a victim to recognize injustice. I've been pretty lucky in that sexism hasn't been used against me overtly too much in my life, but that doesn't make me blind to it. It's also entirely unsurprising that your response to a criticism of something you enjoy (male privilege) is to try to find reasons to discount the speaker, e.g., say that I must have personal issues rather than actual objective reason behind what I'm saying. Nobi's known me for eight years; I think he knows where I'm coming from far more than you do even if he disagrees or just plain doesn't want to hear it.

3) Phyco, when you suggest blaming women for dressing provocatively, I do believe you're confusing cause and effect. Girls get rewarded (in the form of attention, some of which is positive) when they dress to signal receptiveness; there are also pressures of fashion, etc., etc. We've had that conversation before. I'm not up to checking right now, but I think the discussion in the thread about Jade Whatever Her Name Is covered a lot of that. Yes, it's irritating that girls/women dress to keep this cycle going, but it's both parts -- the lookers and the lookees. You talk about respect -- does the comment B_G made to version 1 of this drawing (his suggested dialogue for Sonic) sound respectful? Oh, and A-cups are more common than you think. So are padded bras. It's been that way for centuries; it's just more explicit now. Again, because females who fall into the fashionable specifications are rewarded.

The point isn't whether or not females exist of the type Nobi drew. Obviously they do. The point is that this non-majority segment of the population is represented almost exclusively in contexts like this, as well as advertising, MSM, blah blah... and then people think that that's a majority and those who fall outside of those narrow specifications are mutant freaks who at best should be pitied and at worst shouldn't see the light of day. In other words, if this set of people is "normal" then everyone else is "abnormal", right?

[Nobiyuki77]

The point isn't whether or not females exist of the type Nobi drew. Obviously they do. The point is that this non-majority segment of the population is represented almost exclusively in contexts like this, as well as advertising, MSM, blah blah... and then people think that that's a majority and those who fall outside of those narrow specifications are mutant freaks who at best should be pitied and at worst shouldn't see the light of day. In other words, if this set of people is "normal" then everyone else is "abnormal", right?

But this does bring me to something I recently learned first at a convention, then amongst my female friends. Whether they're super model material or not, I've found that a lot of women actually prefer looking at pictures of sexy women, even in provocative poses. Honestly, I didn't understand it (hell, I still don't). The strange thing is that I've found women seem to like my artwork more when I draw it a bit sexier than the other way around. Not all (obviously), but more seem to like it. And it's not like I've suddenly decided that every picture I ever draw of Giga Girl is going to be hot and sexy. Just maybe every now and again, so I guess I'm just failing to see the problem.

[phyco126]

3) Phyco.... ...you talk about respect -- does the comment B_G made to version 1 of this drawing (his suggested dialogue for Sonic) sound respectful?

There is a reason I haven't mentioned anything about B_G. It isn't like I'm blind to what he says.

A cups may be more common than what I think, but believe me, I can take 20 girls at random, make them reveal themselves, measure, and I bet all other cups will beat out As. Don't get me wrong, I prefere As to Cs, but that doesn't take away the fact that all other cups beat out As significantly. At leats where I live. It also bothers me that a woman feels the need to get breast implants. Or make-up. Though, I would rather not bring up the make-up crap again, for risk of being surprisingly flamed again.

Also, women love the attention. Sorry, they do. Then why is it that they are the victims? We are not talking about rape, we are talking about something that women knowingly do to be attractive to males. Why? Because males are visual things. I'm sure if we where not, woman wouldn't feel the need to dress like that. You can't say it's my fault they dress like that because I look. That's like saying it's my fault I have a penis. I didn't have a choice, last I checked. I also gave up a while back on trying to not look, it's beyond difficult. That doesn't mean that every girl that walks by I turn my head, stare at her chest or rear end, and try to grab her.

Fashion irritates me. Dressing up to look attractive irritates me. Whatever. I'm still gonna look, and I will still be irritated at myself because of the sheer hypocrisy involved on my level.

[Kizyr]

GENERAL WARNING:
Do not make personal attacks on one another.
I'm only going to mention this once. The next personal attack I see, I'm locking the thread. KF

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Alun, i had a chance to reference the 90's Sonic cartoon and i wasn't about to pass it up.

Also, why is it WRONG to enjoy the sexuality and attractiveness of a woman? What's inherently wrong with complimenting a woman's ass if you enjoy the look of it? What about that proves that you ONLY like the physical side? Do you expect men to be like "Hey, nice ass! and speaking of something else i can get behind, i really appreciate your opinions and political perspective."?

That's women you know on some level. What about women you don't know personally? Are you awful if you form an opinion about her appearance before getting to know her at all?

The image is fine. This isn't like that one picture (actual, not animated) of the naked girl with snes controllers draped over her breasts and a SNES with Zelda covering her crotch.

I can take 20 girls at random, make them reveal themselves, measure, and I bet all other cups will beat out As.

Prove it.

EDIT: i'm completely with you on the makeup thing though. women are a lot more attractive when they don't feel the need for that crap.

[phyco126]

I can take 20 girls at random, make them reveal themselves, measure, and I bet all other cups will beat out As.

Prove it.

No, I'm not that low that I'm gonna go out and start asking 20 random girls to reveal themselves to me, not even for the sake of science or curiosity.

Aside from your make-up comment, I'm not exactly in agreenance to complimenting a woman like that. Though from personal experience of watching other men in action, they do seem to get laid a lot more often using that line.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

I can take 20 girls at random, make them reveal themselves, measure, and I bet all other cups will beat out As.

Prove it.

No, I'm not that low that I'm gonna go out and start asking 20 random girls to reveal themselves to me, not even for the sake of science or curiosity.

Aside from your make-up comment, I'm not exactly in agreenance to complimenting a woman like that. Though from personal experience of watching other men in action, they do seem to get laid a lot more often using that line.

Some women can tell when a man is going for a compliment or just trying to be offensive.

[DezoPenguin]

Also, women love the attention. Sorry, they do. Then why is it that they are the victims? We are not talking about rape, we are talking about something that women knowingly do to be attractive to males. Why? Because males are visual things. I'm sure if we where not, woman wouldn't feel the need to dress like that. You can't say it's my fault they dress like that because I look. That's like saying it's my fault I have a penis. I didn't have a choice, last I checked. I also gave up a while back on trying to not look, it's beyond difficult. That doesn't mean that every girl that walks by I turn my head, stare at her chest or rear end, and try to grab her.

The problem is that the overall social dynamic exists that rewards women for acting in an overly provocative manner. There's a certain measure of chicken-egg analysis there, but the point Alun makes is not that women do dress and act provocatively but that they do so for specific reasons which relate to an unfair society in which they exist. Now--men also dress in a provocative manner to attract women, so it's by no means limited to one gender. The issue is that women are viewed in a sexual aspect first, with attributes such as intellect, education, skills, influence, etc., reduced to a secondary capacity, while with men attractiveness is one of the secondary aspects instead of the primary consideration.

Thus, while there are plenty of examples of men being presented as pure sex objects to a female audience("Fabio" springs to mind), those are the exceptions, rather than the rule, while the reverse is true in the case of women.

The problem is not that you look. The problem is that many men just stop at looking and marginalize and devalue women. So when one is creating a character--a media product--for the specific purpose of promoting a website which exists to be pro-female, it defeats the purpose to reduce her to a sexual object. On the one hand, it's important to present the character as being attractive (because on the one hand, people don't like to read comic strips about the unattractive, and also because part of the point is that female gamers aren't supposed to be stereotyped as nerdish, socially defective freaks the way male geeks are stereotyped), but on the other hand reducing her to a sex object defeats the fundamental purposes.

And since I didn't even see the original picture, I'm not going to offer any opinion at all on whether lines were crossed that shouldn't have been--that's essentially an individual judgment call (okay, ideally it's an objective standard based on something like "picture A causues 45% of viewers to have immediate sexual thoughts while picture B gives rise to the same thoughts in 22% of viewers" but that's data which is unavailable). The point is to be aware that there are lines that can be crossed and to be thoughtful regarding their existence.

[Nobiyuki77]

I think I hit the balance okay. It's attractive, but I don't think it goes too far (and I even removed the cleavage from the original sketch as a good faith measure). Most of the girls I've shown it too have loved it.

Giga was originally a Pro Girl Gamer type site, now we're just more of an artistic community (a very DEAD artistic community at the moment sadly) and Giga's become more or less my character who I draw from time to time and I'm also including as a major character in my DEATH: Part Time novels (known as "G.G.")

And as I've previously mentioned, this is a rare deal for me. I rarely draw her in a sexy manner and feel this doesn't really cross any boundries, but I suppose that's just my opinion.

[Nobiyuki77]

i'm completely with you on the makeup thing though. women are a lot more attractive when they don't feel the need for that crap.

Me three.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

I think I hit the balance okay. It's attractive, but I don't think it goes too far (and I even removed the cleavage from the original sketch as a good faith measure). Most of the girls I've shown it too have loved it.

Giga was originally a Pro Girl Gamer type site, now we're just more of an artistic community (a very DEAD artistic community at the moment sadly) and Giga's become more or less my character who I draw from time to time and I'm also including as a major character in my DEATH: Part Time novels (known as "G.G.")

And as I've previously mentioned, this is a rare deal for me. I rarely draw her in a sexy manner and feel this doesn't really cross any boundries, but I suppose that's just my opinion.

It doesn't. You simply triggered someone who could see sexism in a ham sandwich.

[Alunissage]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get you.

In other words, I see sexism everywhere because it IS everywhere.

Thank you, Darrell, for expanding on my point. Maybe it'll be taken more seriously coming from a man, who is less likely to be dismissed as just feeling ugly.

And sure, there are instances of attention feeling good. There are also instances, a lot of them, of it being icky or just plain scary. The premise that seems to have been articulated here is that it's okay to stare at a woman who is deliberately inviting attention via her dress -- but surely you see that that can be subjective. It's a pretty short progression from "she dresses that way to get attention" to "she wouldn't dress that way if she didn't want attention" to "she's dressed in a way that makes her look [attractive, available, female] so it's OK to stare" to "she's female, she must want/deserve attention" to "all females are targets for my attention because they all really want it even if they deny it". That general mode of thinking is what leads to the things like "she was asking for it [comments, harrassment, rape] because she was dressed that way", which essentially takes the blame and responsibility for the man's own actions and puts them on the woman.

I am not saying I think anyone here would take things that far. But do you see how believing you have the right to ogle is part of that path?

And I don't know if zq will get around to logging in and commenting again, so I'll just mention the comment he made to me about picture composition. Foreground and background. Which is the important part of the girl, her rear end, or what she's doing? That should spell out the balance problem right there.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

If the problem is that men like women that they find attractive and will reward behavior that they enjoy then i don't see how the world is going to get anywhere on this one.

Some problems can go and others just aren't going to. Men will always reward hotness and actions/decisions that fit into that category with attention. Women (in general) will always be interested in that attention. Those of us who don't qualify as hot in the general eye will just have to tolerate that OR not let it bug us.

Things like the double standard on what is sexually acceptable behavior for a man as opposed to a woman CAN change and have been steadily.

You can hate the way we're hardwired all you like, but that won't change things.

[phyco126]

Alunissage, I never said I have a right to oggle, but you really just can't deny that men don't oggle because they can or want to. Well, some do. What I am saying is that men are hardwired that way, if a christian organization can admit that, I'm sure there is some truth to it.

However, I would truely like to see a response on that by G1, Sonic#, and Kiz. Those guys I can see as ripping that to shreds, and I would honestly like to see their take on it.

[Kizyr]

Topic locked.
I warned you.

Nobi, you're free to make another thread if you wish to continue this discussion. KF